Is this group worth $22,000 101st Airborne. D-day

[WEAVER45]

Is this group the real thing?  Both  Medals are privately engraved.  What does everyone think?

 

see link for more?

 

https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-Military-Artifacts/Military-Artifacts/Artifacts-and-Documents-for-the-First-Man-In-on-D-Day/lotInformation/67849628#topoflot

 

[manayunkman]

Maybe

[Brig]

There's no way it gets that opening bid, real or otherwise

[LuftStalg1]

Says it comes with provenance from the widow through the current owner.    I have not seen said provenance but I think that would be pretty solid and I would have no problem contacting each owner still living for conformation of the items in the lot.  It only takes one person to think its a fair price and I am sure there is at least one person out there that does.

[KurtA]

Question should be “is this group worth $22,000 plus 24% auction premium?”  

No
Unofficially engraved medals aren’t enough for me. I’d need original award documents too. 

[Wharfmaster]

If I had 20 Grand burning a hole in my pocket, I would buy 20, $1,000.00 officially named medal groups that include original award documents, photos and dog tags.

 

Or maybe 40, $500.00 named Navy Good Conduct groups.

 

 

W

[blademan]

These may be real, but it lights up all my red flags.

 

Very easy for someone to put together a group like this at a faction of the cost. Even the provinance can be problematic.

 

I knew a  Vietnam special forces vet that regularly put together and sold "his grouping" in shadow boxes at shows, all with "provinance", " direct from the vet" and privately engraved by himself. I knew of dozens of such grouping he made. Each were a little different. He even included copies of his original documents citing he needed to keep the originals documents.... His name alludes me.

 

I agree that original award documents would help. I suspect those could be faked?

 

This said, I would think the DSC number would be tradable but really don't know for sure.  

 

As for the price, seems the sum of the parts, if as presented, don't even come close. 

 

I am by no means an expert in this area but have been collecting a while. 

[Dave]

I really like the engraving on the medals. It's obviously not official, but it looks definitely "vintage" to me.

 

That said, talking with another collector who knows the background on this group (it is apparently well known in some airborne circles), the provenance isn't as "clean" as RIA makes it out to be. There are a couple of collectors missing from the chain of custody. Not to mention that everything now "in" the group was not included on the original letter not out of simple omission...but because it's been added to the group since it left the widow. 

 

There are some other groups from the same "high end collection" in the upcoming RIA auction and the bidding estimates are sky high, like the below:

[Dave]

There are a couple of other groups on there where the patches must be the value (like the one above, where the squadron patch must be $9000 of the estimate...)

 

Here's another two...the 62nd FG one must have a $2500 patch (I don't know if it is) as the rest are unnamed medals with no provenance. The 501st patch is worth around $2200, so the rest must be the DIs and such. The DSC group is pretty cool. I love the period engraving. That said, the DSC is post war, and it appears that the BSM is as well. But if you like the story and the private engraving...it might be worth the auction estimate minimum. 

 

 

[LuftStalg1]

19 minutes ago, Dave said:

I really like the engraving on the medals. It's obviously not official, but it looks definitely "vintage" to me.

 

That said, talking with another collector who knows the background on this group (it is apparently well known in some airborne circles), the provenance isn't as "clean" as RIA makes it out to be. There are a couple of collectors missing from the chain of custody. Not to mention that everything now "in" the group was not included on the original letter not out of simple omission...but because it's been added to the group since it left the widow. 

 

Thanks for clarifying some of this Dave.  The added "facts" make this troublesome lot indeed.  I am sure RIA is not aware of the real history but rather only what they have been told by the consigner.   A real shame!

[ItemCo16527]

Frank Lillyman's DSC, PH, BSM, Croix de Guerre w/ star, a set of ribbons sewn to khaki backing, CIB, Pathfinder insignia, 2 101st Airborne patches, Master Jump Wings and basic Jump Wings with 2 stars and arrowhead (along with certificates for the DSC, both Bronze Stars, and one of the Purple Hearts) are pictured in the book America's Finest: U.S. Airborne Uniforms, Equipment and Insignia of World War Two (ETO) by Gary Howard. The photo states that they are from the author's collection. It may be possible to reach out to him to see if this lot is legit. The book was published in 1994, so it's entirely possible he sold Lillyman's things since then.

[Persian Gulf Command]

Anyone know what Lot #410, Frank Lillyman Group, sold for on Friday?

[Hermanus]

.

 

[Persian Gulf Command]

Thank you - and WoW!

 

This Price Realized answers a lot about the questions and comments this thread elicited! 

[Tonomachi]

Aren't those 502nd P.I.R. officer collar brass post war?  I thought the rule of thumb was if the numbers were soldered on top they were post war and the ones that were soldered on the front of the bar were considered of WW2 vintage.

 

 

[Tolzer]

I have the same understanding as Tonomachi

[manayunkman]

Good eye I didn’t notice the 502.

 

The buyer does have faith.

 

When I was 11 I met Mr. Lillyman in New York City at a Knickerbocker Greys event at the old armory.

 

He presented awards to those of us who had earned them.

[Willy1690]

There's something south of cheese to this grouping. The big Airborne guys have been pretty silent. 

[Skysoldier80]

There is no way in hell I would pay that for anything but a car

[Willy1690]

I vaguely recall a story about the widow tossing his medals in the trash and the collector who was visiting pulled them out. All together it would run someone between 5-6k to put this together with the type 8 eagle patch bringing the most money. 

[Dave]

Some folks were dropping good money at the auction. Wish I could sell things for these prices! 

[manayunkman]

7 minutes ago, Dave said:

Some folks were dropping good money at the auction. Wish I could sell things for these prices! 

First thing you need to do is put some groups together.

 

They bring the big money.

[Persian Gulf Command]

So is the optimal strategy "Put Together Groups".  Sure seems the case in toady's Militaria Wheeling and Dealing! 

[pararaftanr2]

Are these groupings all from a former Forum member and author who was banned from here a few years ago? 

[manayunkman]

16 minutes ago, Persian Gulf Command said:

So is the optimal strategy "Put Together Groups".  Sure seems the case in toady's Militaria Wheeling and Dealing! 

I was being sarcastic of course but I would have paid for that 501 bunch, if all the insignia are legit, just to have them.

 

A 501 patch on eBay brought real good money recently, over $2000 if I remember correctly, as mentioned here on the forum.