coolman Posted February 22, 2009 Share #26 Posted February 22, 2009 also we need to give the deffinition of the term *rigger made* bc in diferent countries rigger made means different things. in the Greek army for example i remember when the several WWII-Korean & vietnam helmets becoming in really horrible condition the repairing job was'nt done in owr camp..so no riggers in the camp....they were all collected & send to military factories & replaced imediately with Greek made M1 clones...in the military factory all the steel pots hammered to eliminate the dents...replaced the WWII chinstraps with detacheable T44 vietnam style copies..repainted with a paint sand mix...all the rotten webbing of the liners suspension replaced with mint greek made suspensions & the final result was astonishing...brand new helmets again!!! i was the same story to the US army? or they repaired the helmets within the unit? i dont know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenm Posted February 22, 2009 Share #27 Posted February 22, 2009 When you see GI serial number identified or unit-marked "rigger" liners, then are always in the post-war RA or US numbering system. I've seen them with tags in from post-war AIB units from the 82nd. The 11th Airborne ones that are sometimes seen have the post-war decals on and black paint. Oh, and as far as I've seen or heard, not a single "rigger" liner has been found on a battlefield here in Europe... They fill the gap between the ending of Westinghouse liner production (in 1945) and the M-1956 (or is that M-1958? I forget) liner, where the yokes were again fitted under the harness A's. Cheers, Glen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted February 22, 2009 Share #28 Posted February 22, 2009 for me they making good wartime helmets until somebody out there can prove otherwise And for many other collectors including me, they are all post WW2 conversions until someone can prove otherwise.... To each his opinion..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted February 23, 2009 Share #29 Posted February 23, 2009 First of all, the wording in this topic needs to be toned down a bit as I see this evolve the wrong way. This is about AB Helmet Liners with separate A-straps being WW2 or post WW2; not about books or authors..... the assumption that they are postwar is not mine...is just spreaded out to the whole collecting community for some unexplained reason The asumption that they are NOT WW2 is based on the following facts: *Every ID'd so called Rigger liner shown came with a name or ASN was postwar! NO-ONE ever encountered a rigger liner with a WW2 ASN or name! *Many liners were left behind in Europe to be found by collectors over the last 60 years. NONE of those were the rigger made type! *NO pictures exist showing them in use during WW2. And they are many pictures that show details of the liners' suspension and yokes. You can always tell from the buckle which is completely different than the Inland wire buckle style. Just compare them and you'll see the difference. Until someone has definite proof that they were indeed used in the ETO during WW2, most will consider them postwar because of those facts.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M-1Helmet.com Posted February 23, 2009 Share #30 Posted February 23, 2009 This is about AB Helmet Liners with separate A-straps being WW2 or post WW2; not about books or authors.....The asumption that they are NOT WW2 is based on the following facts: *Every ID'd so called Rigger liner shown came with a name or ASN was postwar! NO-ONE ever encountered a rigger liner with a WW2 ASN or name! *Many liners were left behind in Europe to be found by collectors over the last 60 years. NONE of those were the rigger made type! *NO pictures exist showing them in use during WW2. And they are many pictures that show details of the liners' suspension and yokes. You can always tell from the buckle which is completely different than the Inland wire buckle style. Just compare them and you'll see the difference. Until someone has definite proof that they were indeed used in the ETO during WW2, most will consider them postwar because of those facts.... And I'd like to add that: * No WW2 documentation regarding these rigger type jump liners seems to have surfaced until now. Its interesting to read that Coolman feels books are full of assumptions, yet he assumes about 50 million steel shells were made and rigger type jump liners were used during WW2. In my quaint little old hometown there used to be a bookstore. On the façade you can still read the nice saying (which I'll try to translate), 'Its easier to scoop water with a sieve than knowledge without books'. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101combatvet Posted February 23, 2009 Share #31 Posted February 23, 2009 I'm with coolman.... "rigger modified" liners are as realistic as "rigger modified" M1 carbine pouches..... remember those. If it happen post war it was limited because there wasn't a need for them...... do a little research. Many of the so called "rigger modified" liners may actually be factory modified. So an uninformed "collector" writes a book and all you sheep follow. So where are the riggers that modified them? Have you interviewed any that made this claim? I'd like to hear from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted February 23, 2009 Share #32 Posted February 23, 2009 The term 'rigger' liners are used here to describe the liners with separate A-yokes, regardless of who made them. Personally I'm pretty convinced the term 'rigger' made liners was started by collectors/dealers trying to convince potential buyers that they were indeed WW2. @101combatvet: Do you know of any beyond doubt WW2 used 'rigger' liners? Anyway, I don't believe in them and have sold all of the ones I had in the past at the price of regular liners... I will stick with my Inlands and Westinghouses for my WW2 AB displays.... As I said before; to each his opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101combatvet Posted February 23, 2009 Share #33 Posted February 23, 2009 Johan.... yes.... I understand the terms. Yes, I have a "rigger" modified helmet liner and early M1C that came out of the estate of a 11th Airborne vet that discharged in 1945-46. I have another one that I believe to have been modified at the factory.... the shell is painted OD but all the rivets are unpainted which leads me to believe that it may have been assembled this way at the factory. Whatever makes you feel good..... I have them in my collection.... I have never sold one nor do I plan to anytime soon. The term 'rigger' liners are used here to describe the liners with separate A-yokes, regardless of who made them. Personally I'm pretty convinced the term 'rigger' made liners was started by collectors/dealers trying to convince potential buyers that they were indeed WW2. @101combatvet: Do you know of any beyond doubt WW2 used 'rigger' liners? Anyway, I don't believe in them and have sold all of the ones I had in the past at the price of regular liners... I will stick with my Inlands and Westinghouses for my WW2 AB displays.... As I said before; to each his opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugme Posted February 23, 2009 Share #34 Posted February 23, 2009 Rigger: A person who is trained to pack, maintain or repair parachutes. A rigger is required to understand fabrics, hardware, webbing, regulations, sewing, packing, and other aspects related to the building, packing, repair, and maintenance of parachutes. This definition and much more about U.S. Army Riggers, their job and history is from: http://www.qmfound.com/aerial_delivery.htm...%20Photographs This will require some reading. But, I could find nothing about them ever doing helmet conversions during WWII. I cannot say that anything has been found that this type of "Rigger" conversion was ever done at the factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobrahistorian Posted February 23, 2009 Share #35 Posted February 23, 2009 Heh! Wow, I just saw this thread. That's my helmet I'm selling. The pot is a repro as is the chin cup. The liner, however, is original. When it was made, I have no idea. Not an Airborne collector, just selling it so I can pay off the baby furniture and maybe get some original WWII Helicopter stuff! Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted February 23, 2009 Share #36 Posted February 23, 2009 After some cleaning and removing offensive posts, I have re-opened this topic. I'm not asking everyone to put each other on your Christmas Cards' list, but I am asking everyone to get along here. Again this topic is about the AB Liners with separate A-frames, so stick to that. Thanks! JOHan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgawne Posted February 24, 2009 Share #37 Posted February 24, 2009 Hey, I had an odd idea when the 11th AB was mentioned. So Johan says they are not found in Europe from the war. And it is odd that there would be a need to make these when there should have been a decent supply of real ones. So I started thinking- 11th AB. Out in the Pacific at the end of a long supply chain. Probably not much AB stuff stocked up out htere. Anyone looked through 11th AB photos? (I am not saying this is the case, I just had an idea). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101combatvet Posted February 24, 2009 Share #38 Posted February 24, 2009 That is a very good assumption.... the problem is that the liner shortages existed into late 1945 in the ETO. I have pictures of 82nd troops with helmets taped for a jump in Rheims in 1945. Once you deactivate four divisions and several separate airborne billets you no longer have a shortage. Hey, I had an odd idea when the 11th AB was mentioned. So Johan says they are not found in Europe from the war. And it is odd that there would be a need to make these when there should have been a decent supply of real ones. So I started thinking- 11th AB. Out in the Pacific at the end of a long supply chain. Probably not much AB stuff stocked up out htere. Anyone looked through 11th AB photos? (I am not saying this is the case, I just had an idea). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenm Posted February 24, 2009 Share #39 Posted February 24, 2009 They were definitely in use by the 82nd in the 1950-52 period, as I've had a couple marked to the 504 AIR (sorry, put AIB on a previous before by mistake) with QM repair tags from that period. Cheers, Glen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted February 24, 2009 Share #40 Posted February 24, 2009 I have pictures of 82nd troops with helmets taped for a jump in Rheims in 1945. Yes, but you even see that on the Normandy and Market Garden jump. Wouldn't that indicate a shortage of shells rather that shorage of liners??? It is clear from period pictures and battelfield relics that a lot of the shells used on D-Day were in fact regular M1 helmets instead of the M2 or fixbale M1C... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101combatvet Posted February 24, 2009 Share #41 Posted February 24, 2009 Yes, both.... even parachutes according to some sources. Yes, but you even see that on the Normandy and Market Garden jump. Wouldn't that indicate a shortage of shells rather that shorage of liners???It is clear from period pictures and battelfield relics that a lot of the shells used on D-Day were in fact regular M1 helmets instead of the M2 or fixbale M1C... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101combatvet Posted February 24, 2009 Share #42 Posted February 24, 2009 I'm not surprised... I saw a WW2 liner used on one rare exception in the mid 70's. They were definitely in use by the 82nd in the 1950-52 period, as I've had a couple marked to the 504 AIR (sorry, put AIB on a previous before by mistake) with QM repair tags from that period. Cheers, Glen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Costa Posted February 24, 2009 Share #43 Posted February 24, 2009 here is a firestone post ww2. ofcourse started out as a ww2 liner but, was upgraded to a para. how far into post ww2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101combatvet Posted February 24, 2009 Share #44 Posted February 24, 2009 After reading all the posts what do you think? here is a firestone post ww2. ofcourse started out as a ww2 liner but, was upgraded to a para. how far into post ww2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolman Posted February 24, 2009 Share #45 Posted February 24, 2009 hey guys lets close the topic....these riggers have seen more fighting in this forum than in the real WWII there is a total absence of documentation & i think the topic is dead they may be wartime & that's sounds logical or they maybe postwar & that's sounds the same logical also so pls peace...peace & friendship i think the guy who will make an in depth study & write a book abt rigger liners **no mater they are wartime or not** will fill a big gap & will make some quick bucks...no no no...i'm not this guy pls everyone post some more interesting liners pictures if you want...i like to see some more riggers without thinking of their timeframe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolman Posted February 24, 2009 Share #46 Posted February 24, 2009 and the bottom line from me...-the sharp johans eye spoted an interesting point on the A-frames of most of the rigger made liners- i own to say that interesting detail escaped my attention...some liners have standard wire "inland" or big OD painted cast "westinghouse" style buckles but most liners dont have standard buckles...they using many different military & non military buckles...that gives my the impression that they maded in a hurry using whatever available at hands at the moment without seriously think of their uniformity...that's not evidence of their wartime or post war use-is just a good johans spot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_pickrall Posted February 24, 2009 Share #47 Posted February 24, 2009 As long as it is friendly discussion there is no need to close the thread. You never know who may stop by and have the needed piece of info to solve the puzzle. It is only when it becomes heated that closure is an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted February 24, 2009 Share #48 Posted February 24, 2009 Actually I have never seen so called rigger liners with Inland style or Westinghouse cast style buckles... All rigger liners I have seen had the rather squarish steel wire buckles, SIMILAR to Inland buckles, but just not the same.... The only buckles that come close to the Inland style ar the ones found on the Westinghouse/green A-Strap/wire buckle combination with A-straps attached under the existing suspension exactly like the ones with cast buckles, but even those are not identical.... My PERSONAL timeline WW2: Inland + Westinghouse cast buckle VERY late WW2 to just post WW2: Westinghouse Wire buckle, even observed some Firestone ones with parkerised wire buckles Post WW2: A-Yokes separate from rest of suspension Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101combatvet Posted February 24, 2009 Share #49 Posted February 24, 2009 My PERSONAL timeline early to mid WW2: wire buckle mid to late WW2: cast buckle late to early Post WW2: A-Yokes separate from rest of suspension Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtdorango Posted February 25, 2009 Share #50 Posted February 25, 2009 Heres one of my rigger liners with interesting salvage or repair tag.....one side of tag reads...CO.B 504th Salvage 82 ABN....other side...504th PIR Helmet Liner M-1 CO.B......mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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