coolman Posted February 26, 2009 Share #76 Posted February 26, 2009 I just examined the 11th veteran helmet in my collection and it is the one that has a painted liner assembled with all unpainted rivets. There are no traces of paint even on the edges.... it is in the "rigger modified" style. It is also a Westinghouse and I believe it to have been assembled this way. I just can't believe that a "rigger" or anyone would disassembled the whole liner then reassembled it and then add the "rigger" modification. I have no doubt that this was done at the Westinghouse factory. i stronly believe the same-some riggers am sure are factory maded but most others are ground troops helmets modifications Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_pickrall Posted February 26, 2009 Share #77 Posted February 26, 2009 I just examined the 11th veteran helmet in my collection and it is the one that has a painted liner assembled with all unpainted rivets. There are no traces of paint even on the edges.... it is in the "rigger modified" style. It is also a Westinghouse and I believe it to have been assembled this way. I just can't believe that a "rigger" or anyone would disassembled the whole liner then reassembled it and then add the "rigger" modification. I have no doubt that this was done at the Westinghouse factory. 101 can you post some pics of the helmets you are using for reference? I think that would be a big help to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101combatvet Posted February 26, 2009 Share #78 Posted February 26, 2009 I would like to do that.... I'll see what I can do.... I have a few other pressing things going on at the moment with deadlines. Because of the nature of this discussion I feel I owe it to this forum.... I'll see what I can do. 101 can you post some pics of the helmets you are using for reference? I think that would be a big help to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hudson Posted February 28, 2009 Share #79 Posted February 28, 2009 "Rigger modified" does not really refer to parachute riggers. Riggers go back to the days of sailing ship and were the guys who took care of what Wikipedia calls the "mechanical sailing apparatus attached to the hull in order to move the boat as a whole" - i.e. the "rigging." They took care of a wide range of things from mast and spars, to ropes, sails, blocks and tackles, etc. and sometimes had to be creative. In cases where something went wrong and you were at sea you might not be able to get a replacement part or new spar, so you'd have to rig up something that would do the job. And really in militaria collecting, a rigger modification implies something modified in the field either to make a repair or in some cases because it was decided that a piece of gear would be more efficient or easier to use if the factory-made version was modified. In some cases a whole new piece of gear would be created. I've seen that happen with items made in the metalshop of an aircraft carrier, not just "rigger'modified," but "rigger made." The validity of rigger-modified militaria is always an act of faith, because the truth is, it's almost always impossible to prove who did something and why or where it was done. As this thread proves again and again, it boils down to what you choose to believe and this is little point in going in circles or getting hot under the collar because someone else doesn't believe what you do. Now if someone comes up with the smoking gun that provides definitive proof, that's something else, but in the absence of that, it's all just talk and each reader has to make up their own mind about what to believe. As for me, I believe I'll go have a beer.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GITom1944 Posted March 1, 2009 Share #80 Posted March 1, 2009 Here's a couple of pics of field modified helmets used in the SWPA. These are different than the rigger made liners discussed above. The first is worn by Lt. Daniel G. Mason, head of the Signal Photo detachment serving with the 503rd PIR. Gordonvale, Queensland, Australia; November 6, 1943 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GITom1944 Posted March 1, 2009 Share #81 Posted March 1, 2009 September 9, 1943. Australian gunners attached to the 503rd PIR for the Nadzab operation wearing field modified liners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101combatvet Posted March 1, 2009 Share #82 Posted March 1, 2009 My PERSONAL *revised* timeline early to mid WW2: wire buckle mid to late WW2: cast buckle mid to early Post WW2: A-Yokes separate from rest of suspension Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolman Posted March 1, 2009 Share #83 Posted March 1, 2009 use logic when you thinking abt militaria as you do with any other thing...nothing can beat logic...the overal factory made para liners quantity was next to nothing for a world war extent...they were definitely rigger made liners out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenm Posted March 2, 2009 Share #84 Posted March 2, 2009 Here's one of the "standard" "rigger-made" liners for sale on ebay right now, complete with 307th Medical tags for a repair: http://cgi.ebay.com/WW2-US-GI-M-1-PARATROO...emZ260370318253 The "4" on the year on the tag is obviously of a different pen from the rest and is probably over the top of an original "5" for 195x, leading to the assumption of an alteration by a collector/seller. The Fort Bragg location gives the game away that is it post-1945 at least since the 82nd didn't get back there until 1946. Cheers, Glen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolman Posted March 2, 2009 Share #85 Posted March 2, 2009 the operation of converting infantry liners to para liners within a unit when needed is very easy...it does'nt even requiring special skills...all you need is a few yards of webbing straps a quantity of buckles & a Black & Becker kind of tool to drill 4 holes for the rivets...that's all. i dont really know yet if that was done during WWII or not but technically is a very easy conversion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolman Posted March 2, 2009 Share #86 Posted March 2, 2009 Here's one of the "standard" "rigger-made" liners for sale on ebay right now, complete with 307th Medical tags for a repair: http://cgi.ebay.com/WW2-US-GI-M-1-PARATROO...emZ260370318253 The "4" on the year on the tag is obviously of a different pen from the rest and is probably over the top of an original "5" for 195x, leading to the assumption of an alteration by a collector/seller. The Fort Bragg location gives the game away that is it post-1945 at least since the 82nd didn't get back there until 1946. Cheers, Glen. zero bids on the item.. obviously the people dont trust the rigger made liners...but people is strange when buying items so i will not by any way say that the people is right or the product is bad...they dont bother to bid on a somewhat rare para liner but they are allways ready to pay 1000 euro's for crappy greek army 50s boots totally unidentified & misrepresented as very early-experimental M43 US Airborne boots!!! after they step on the mine & lost one leg or two they going back to work & working for a month to make again the money that spent for an item that acctualy does'nt even worth 3 euro's...!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenm Posted March 2, 2009 Share #87 Posted March 2, 2009 Have asked the seller for clarification.... best not say before 1948, as the 307th only became a Battalion in Dec 47... it was just a Company in WWII. Cheers, Glen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101combatvet Posted March 2, 2009 Share #88 Posted March 2, 2009 The seller states it is "307TH MED BN" the date is pretty clear to me "6/8 1948". I don't see a problem with it.... the seller says it's a "SALVAGE TAGS" so if it's being salvaged on "6/8 1948" when was it modified? Sometime prior to 1948? Maybe a few years prior to 1948? I had a helmet for over 15 or 16 years during which time I was on jump status before I replaced the liner I put it through two campaigns and a whole lot of deployments during that time. Here's one of the "standard" "rigger-made" liners for sale on ebay right now, complete with 307th Medical tags for a repair: http://cgi.ebay.com/WW2-US-GI-M-1-PARATROO...emZ260370318253 The "4" on the year on the tag is obviously of a different pen from the rest and is probably over the top of an original "5" for 195x, leading to the assumption of an alteration by a collector/seller. The Fort Bragg location gives the game away that is it post-1945 at least since the 82nd didn't get back there until 1946. Cheers, Glen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenm Posted March 2, 2009 Share #89 Posted March 2, 2009 Sorry to say, but the seller has just sent me a close-up pic of the obviously inked with a ballpoint pen date on the label for the year (that doesn't match the other writing at all), and the date is....{drum roll}.... 1945.... See a problem now...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101combatvet Posted March 2, 2009 Share #90 Posted March 2, 2009 Okay...... I see it now. So the seller changes the date on a salvage tag..... and the salvage tag could have been added by the seller also. Case closed! Sorry to say, but the seller has just sent me a close-up pic of the obviously inked with a ballpoint pen date on the label for the year (that doesn't match the other writing at all), and the date is....{drum roll}.... 1945.... See a problem now...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenm Posted March 2, 2009 Share #91 Posted March 2, 2009 To be honest, it actually doesn't look like there was a year written on the tag at all (unless the other writing is in pencil and it has been rubbed out). The end of the tag where the year should be suspiciously looks like it has been cut off as well though, so maybe it the original year was chopped off... The tag is probably original to the liner, mind you... just the year on it that isn't! Anyway, after all that, this ebay auction has ended up not bringing much to the discussion! Cheers, Glen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101combatvet Posted March 2, 2009 Share #92 Posted March 2, 2009 Yup... To be honest, it actually doesn't look like there was a year written on the tag at all (unless the other writing is in pencil and it has been rubbed out). The end of the tag where the year should be suspiciously looks like it has been cut off as well though, so maybe it the original year was chopped off... The tag is probably original to the liner, mind you... just the year on it that isn't! Anyway, after all that, this ebay auction has ended up not bringing much to the discussion! Cheers, Glen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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