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Paratrooper liners with separate A-yokes


dzandkw
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nice liner thumbsup.gif it is just as the liners i'm find here in greece...right the same thing!! khaki wartime suspension with rigger added OD7# A-frames & with several different crazy *non standard* buckles... think.gif

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Any mileage in theorising over the obvious similarities between the fittings on these and the ones on the 'Nam-era paratrooper liners. Same company doing the work perhaps?

 

(Ooops... sounds like I don't think that these are "Rigger-made" at all, but are produced (modified) in a factory.. haha).

 

Cheers,

Glen.

 

PS Will see if I can find my similar 82nd repair tags at home..

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Any mileage in theorising over the obvious similarities between the fittings on these and the ones on the 'Nam-era paratrooper liners. Same company doing the work perhaps?

 

(Ooops... sounds like I don't think that these are "Rigger-made" at all, but are produced (modified) in a factory.. haha).

 

Cheers,

Glen.

 

PS Will see if I can find my similar 82nd repair tags at home..

of course...apparantly the modification done in a military factory using very often cheap non mil spec rivets & other fittings...these rigger liners are not created to make the collectors of the future happy with their beauty as they are all a bit ugly...they'v just maded for the purpose to replace loses of original inland & westinghouse & to insure that the helmet is steady enough & will not slip off the head of the paratrooper as he's exiting the plane's door thumbsup.gif

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If it works why change it (the design of the buckle)? With your logic they would have changed the design of the buckle for each period of

history just to make it easier for the misinformed. Repair tags? Or are they DX tags? Judging from condition it looks like a DX tag

to me.

 

Any mileage in theorising over the obvious similarities between the fittings on these and the ones on the 'Nam-era paratrooper liners. Same company doing the work perhaps?

 

(Ooops... sounds like I don't think that these are "Rigger-made" at all, but are produced (modified) in a factory.. haha).

 

Cheers,

Glen.

 

PS Will see if I can find my similar 82nd repair tags at home..

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Should have said materials there instead of fittings, as I meant the whole type-of-webbing/type-of-buckle/type-of-washers-used-in-fitting combo used in these "rigger" liners being identical (or virtually identical) to 'Nam era ones. Makes you wonder if the same contractor was hired for the production of them. If I wanted to put in some conjecture, I'd say they did two batches - one in the late 40's using WWII-era leftover liners, and one in the early 50's using green-HBT webbed liners. Based on examples seen....

 

Whereas the M56/M58 (whichever) ones were obviously done by someone else completely, since the webbing there is browner and the buckles are (usually?) flat wire, not rounded.

 

And no need to make it personal in your reply. Everyone is entitled to be part of this discussion. Some opinions and information are more valuable than others, some with evidence behind them, some just fantasy/wishes, but everyone can take part. People may not necessarily agree (like I don't agree with your personal timeline), but whilst we're dealing currently without factual production evidence, personal opinions can be stated, not matter how off-the-wall or ridiculous some of them might be.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

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i swore to my self not to add more replies to the topic but i'm tempted all the time to participate as the topic is very interesting...

my opinion is that the early postwar-korea & immediate after korea rigger liners are factory modifications of existing ex-infantry liners...that's evident...but the idea of the separately riveted A-frames of the riggers liners was clever & more practical than the factory made ones-**easy to replace a torn of A-frame without screw of the whole suswpension A-washers etc**...so some time later....**late 50s & vietnam** they produced factory made para liners in the riggers configuration until the end of the production in the mid80s...so an unoficial design as the riggers style A-frames became after some years official as proved more practical than the old WWII originals thumbsup.gif

for just the same reason the steel pots chinstraps became post war detacheable ***for ease of replacement***...the old WWII permanently sewn on straps was just a stupid & inpractical idea bc they need a very professional sewing job & special sewing machines to be reliable & that's not easy if not totaly impossible in a battlefield or even in peace time

 

that's why the nam & post nam era liners are factory made in the"so called" riggers made fashion...

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Theory and timeline blown out of the water because a tag isn't a "repair" tag, but a "DX" tag?? Okaaay.....

 

Not that the tag (called a "salvage or repair tag" by the owner) in question in the photos above is mine, and I think you'll find I said I would try and find "similar 82nd repair tags"... but whatever, obviously the tag-terminology issue is a conversation stopper....

 

Keep smiling... ;)

 

Cheers,

Glen.

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I'd like to see your repair tag. But a repair tag doesn't prove "rigger modified" or does it in your book? Quartermaster Companies assigned to the Airborne Divisions during and after WW2 had the capability to repair just about everything. Riggers may have been limited to just repairing parachutes and harnesses.... so the term "rigger modified" may not even be correct in regards to these liners..... but lets not go there. I interviewed one guy that even repaired the issued wrist watches.... before the war he worked at the Hamilton factory.... go figure. To think that the only repairs or modifications were done post war when the equipment was more in demand during the war.... doesn't make sense from a logical or even a logistic point of view. I will agree that this was also done post war as stated in my timeline. If these modifications were only done post war then there should be tons of documents out there explaining how it was done.... have any of that?

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The repair tag was only mentioned becuase is showed the date of the repair (or when it was submitted for repair, one of the two), indicating date of usage of the item, not who made it or when, as I said previously....

 

"They were definitely in use by the 82nd in the 1950-52 period, as I've had a couple marked to the 504 AIR (sorry, put AIB on a previous before by mistake) with QM repair tags from that period."

 

Not claiming nor implying anything else with that info.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

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Also just to clarify...I called the tag on my para liner "salvage or repair tag" I dont know exactly what the tag is called, I just called it that myself...what is a DX tag?.. think.gif .....mike

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we stick on the old 40s 50s & 60s riggers style liners but even if we look on the last ditch para liners of the mid to late 80s we can make some interesting observations...they kept the old WWII style A-washers till the end of the production long after the adoption of the detacheable suspension to the ground troops helmets!!! think.gif why is that?...are the infantry the clean guys & the paras the dirty guys? if the infantrymen want to take off & wash their dirty suspension why the paras cannot wash their own? :blink: so...are these 80s para liners new made to the old nam non detacheable specification?...or just another convertion of older leftovers nam era infantry liners? a riggers job again well in to the 80s?!!!!! w00t.gif

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Our Riggers never repaired helmets or modified them..... they just packed chutes.

 

we stick on the old 40s 50s & 60s riggers style liners but even if we look on the last ditch para liners of the mid to late 80s we can make some interesting observations...they kept the old WWII style A-washers till the end of the production long after the adoption of the detacheable suspension to the ground troops helmets!!! think.gif why is that?...are the infantry the clean guys & the paras the dirty guys? if the infantrymen want to take off & wash their dirty suspension why the paras cannot wash their own? :blink: so...are these 80s para liners new made to the old nam non detacheable specification?...or just another convertion of older leftovers nam era infantry liners? a riggers job again well in to the 80s?!!!!! w00t.gif
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It is a "Direct Exchange" tag.

 

Also just to clarify...I called the tag on my para liner "salvage or repair tag" I dont know exactly what the tag is called, I just called it that myself...what is a DX tag?.. think.gif .....mike
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to add to the confusion....there were riggers modified steel pots Chinstraps also!!! w00t.gif that's observed in the late 50s early 60s...normal steel pots either new made low profile or older WWII tall reissued ones with normal infantry chinstraps with extra added "rigger stitched" portions of web with the male snaps that snap to the liners female...i'v seen somewere in the books 1 or 2 pictures...pls give me some time to dig it out bc i dont recall witch book that was...it think it was either the SHELBY STANTONS US ARMY UNIFORMS OF THE COL WAR 1948-1973 or the OSPREY ELITE SERIES US ARMY SPECIAL FORCES-GREEN BERETS

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So you are using the repair tag to date a modification? That doesn't hold water.

 

The repair tag was only mentioned becuase is showed the date of the repair (or when it was submitted for repair, one of the two), indicating date of usage of the item, not who made it or when, as I said previously....

 

"They were definitely in use by the 82nd in the 1950-52 period, as I've had a couple marked to the 504 AIR (sorry, put AIB on a previous before by mistake) with QM repair tags from that period."

 

Not claiming nor implying anything else with that info.

 

Cheers,

Glen.

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I have seen the chin straps replaced on an M1. Yes, it was done.

 

to add to the confusion....there were riggers modified steel pots Chinstraps also!!! w00t.gif that's observed in the late 50s early 60s...normal steel pots either new made low profile or older WWII tall reissued ones with normal infantry chinstraps with extra added "rigger stitched" portions of web with the male snaps that snap to the liners female...i'v seen somewere in the books 1 or 2 pictures...pls give me some time to dig it out bc i dont recall witch book that was...it think it was either the SHELBY STANTONS US ARMY UNIFORMS OF THE COL WAR 1948-1973 or the OSPREY ELITE SERIES US ARMY SPECIAL FORCES-GREEN BERETS
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So you are using the repair tag to date a modification? That doesn't hold water.

 

Seriously, are you actually READING what I'm writing on here? Where do I say that - I actually say that ISN'T the case!!

 

Want to read my post again please? ;)

 

Cheers,

Glen.

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I have seen the chin straps replaced on an M1. Yes, it was done.

the infantry chinstraps were not replaced...simply extra para strap ends stiched to the allready existing infantry chinstraps...so the conclusion is...during the whole service life of the M1C 1943 -1988 the helmets were partly factory maded & partly remanufactured "converted" ground troops normal M1s ...

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You certainly are inplying that when you mention a repair tag in a thread which is about modifactions not repairs. I guess we won't

be seeing the repair tag anytime soon?

 

Seriously, are you actually READING what I'm writing on here? Where do I say that - I actually say that ISN'T the case!!

 

Want to read my post again please? ;)

 

Cheers,

Glen.

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See - it works, telling people to keep smiling! ;)

 

Digging through the spares box I've got, noticed that all 3 sets of removed "rigger" yokes that I've accumulated over the years have square blackened brass round wire buckles on them, whilst a set of removed M56/M58 (someone pipe in with the correct designation, please! haha) have rectangular blackened steel flat wire buckles on them.

 

Anyone got a 'Nam era or post-'Nam para liner care to say if the buckles on there are square or rectangular?

 

As an aside, a pair of old old repro Dick Kos ones have rectangular round wire buckles on them, same as a pair of James Phipps (Easy Green) ones, albeit they're in alloy, or are nickled? (You should understand that I do keep a reference box of these things.....).

 

Found a repair tag dated '54 for a proper early WWII Mountain Troop Sleeping Bag... not much use... hahahaha

 

Cheers,

Glen.

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I just examined the 11th veteran helmet in my collection and it is the one that has a painted liner assembled with all unpainted rivets. There are no traces of paint even on the edges.... it is in the "rigger modified" style. It is also a Westinghouse and I believe it to have been assembled this way. I just can't believe that a "rigger" or anyone would disassembled the whole liner then reassembled it and then add the "rigger" modification. I have no doubt that this was done at the Westinghouse factory. bye1.gif

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