Jump to content

Post-WWII McCord heat stamps


etomilitaria
 Share

Recommended Posts

Theriddler

I need to get it out of storage so please bare with me. In the meantime here is a picture of the bails on heat lot M325B.

 

ACC4C8D5-635D-4281-8F5E-D5D656A2C2DC.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Theriddler

M169A heat lot number, previous owner has removed the paint to make it easier to read.

 

B3440071-0B7E-4500-997F-92EF30D12D82.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

elh1311
41 minutes ago, etomilitaria said:

@Theriddler - could you post a picture of the bail loop attachment on the shell for the one with the heat stamp M 169 A. A picture of the heat stamp would be good 

EDITED: misfire on my part!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

elh1311
48 minutes ago, Theriddler said:

Here is another one from my collect it’s heat lot number is M169A note darker finish.

 

 

C8A59D2E-FAF7-488C-980A-4514066B734B.jpeg

My M-186 heat stamped M1 has the same darker paint, which is in contrast to the lighter M-325 heat stamped helmet. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

etomilitaria

This is great - thank you so much for sharing those pictures. Never get tired of seeing M-1s! You have probably already seen this thread in another forum but I would be curious to hear your thoughts. There is discussion here about the shape of the bail loop attachments on post-WWII McCord shells and how 2 different shapes can be seen. One is the more common kind and the other is a squared triangular kind (also seen on Motor Wheel shells). I would suggest @Theriddler that your M169A has that other kind. 

 

As to what you can infer from this I do not really know but it is an interesting element to identify.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

twthmoses

Great thread, love it!

 

I know mention before. The A-B-C etc. is the lift, the subdivision of a heat. The heat being one pot of molted iron purred into an ingot. One has to remember that it is not the shell producer, McCord, or any other producer for that matter, that subdivides the heat, it is the steel manufacture. The lot stamp, like 123A, is the shells producers’ representation of the steels manufactures heat and lifts numbers. I am sure some form of alignment of requirements has occurred between steel manufactures and shell produces beforehand, but to the shell producer it is really indifferent if you get 10000 discs of one heat subdivided or not. You just need to know, if you want to apply your own stamp for traceability. Either way the shell producer get the metal as discs.

 

Post-war McCord had five M1 contracts. Three in early 50s (51-53), a double contract in 1958 and one in 1965. Roughly 1.9 mill shells in all. Note, Motor Wheel got a M1 contract in May 1952 (production started in Sep 1952 at the Duo-Therm division plant No. 4, at Lansing, Michigan). They are not a sub-contractor to McCord. Essentially, there are no Korean War US produced M1 helmet. All contracts was award after the stalemate in Korea. Do not get me wrong plenty of fighting, bombing and shooting during the last two years of the Korean War, but the big movement faze of the first year was done using only WW2 helmets.

 

McCord Lot stamps from M-1A to about M-210A is from the 51-53 contracts. There is no subdivision of these heats, all are A. Lot M-211-A to about M-305-A are from the 1958 contract. Its a slightly different stamp, one more dash. There is no subdivision of these heats, all are A.  From 305 to about 345 is from the 1965 contract. Stamp are displayed different, now they look like “M 305 A”. No “–“and a spacing between number and letter. These stamps have lifts of A, B and C. I do not know the exact division between 51-53, 58 and 65 contract; I simply do not have enough samples to compare with. But they are within plus/minus 5-10 lots as stated above. Note, as McCord WW2 stamps there are errors. Statistic determines that there must be error, and there are. You can find lot stamps like –M267-A (58 stamp) or M167-A (51-53 stamp), or double stamps or stamps in weird places etc. I would be more than happy to see posted weird stamps. I love them.

 

Mccord postww3.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

etomilitaria
1 hour ago, twthmoses said:

Great thread, love it!

 

I know mention before. The A-B-C etc. is the lift, the subdivision of a heat. The heat being one pot of molted iron purred into an ingot. One has to remember that it is not the shell producer, McCord, or any other producer for that matter, that subdivides the heat, it is the steel manufacture. The lot stamp, like 123A, is the shells producers’ representation of the steels manufactures heat and lifts numbers. I am sure some form of alignment of requirements has occurred between steel manufactures and shell produces beforehand, but to the shell producer it is really indifferent if you get 10000 discs of one heat subdivided or not. You just need to know, if you want to apply your own stamp for traceability. Either way the shell producer get the metal as discs.

 

Post-war McCord had five M1 contracts. Three in early 50s (51-53), a double contract in 1958 and one in 1965. Roughly 1.9 mill shells in all. Note, Motor Wheel got a M1 contract in May 1952 (production started in Sep 1952 at the Duo-Therm division plant No. 4, at Lansing, Michigan). They are not a sub-contractor to McCord. Essentially, there are no Korean War US produced M1 helmet. All contracts was award after the stalemate in Korea. Do not get me wrong plenty of fighting, bombing and shooting during the last two years of the Korean War, but the big movement faze of the first year was done using only WW2 helmets.

 

McCord Lot stamps from M-1A to about M-210A is from the 51-53 contracts. There is no subdivision of these heats, all are A. Lot M-211-A to about M-305-A are from the 1958 contract. Its a slightly different stamp, one more dash. There is no subdivision of these heats, all are A.  From 305 to about 345 is from the 1965 contract. Stamp are displayed different, now they look like “M 305 A”. No “–“and a spacing between number and letter. These stamps have lifts of A, B and C. I do not know the exact division between 51-53, 58 and 65 contract; I simply do not have enough samples to compare with. But they are within plus/minus 5-10 lots as stated above. Note, as McCord WW2 stamps there are errors. Statistic determines that there must be error, and there are. You can find lot stamps like –M267-A (58 stamp) or M167-A (51-53 stamp), or double stamps or stamps in weird places etc. I would be more than happy to see posted weird stamps. I love them.

 

Mccord postww3.png

 

 

 

@twthmoses- thank you very very much. I really appreciate you sharing this information. The divisions you mention between contracts and heat stamps (e.g. 'M-1A to about M-210A is from the 51-53 contracts') are based on your own personal research and collecting of data, is that correct? It is FANTASTIC research!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

elh1311
3 hours ago, etomilitaria said:

Thanks for that link. Starting to make more sense. Little things like I that I never would have thought to look for. 

 

I have a few other postwar McCords, gonna go have a look at them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

elh1311

This is M 341 C. I have noticed also that some heat stamps have a dash between characters while some do not. I'm sure this has more to do with the actual manufacturing of the steel sheets but it's interesting to note. 

 

This particular helmet is my hands down favorite of my postwar McCord helmets. This one is a rigger made paratrooper helmet. The chinstraps are sewn on (which should not be a feature of helmets in this time-frame) and the liner is a P55 (with a 1956 Micarta tag on it) that has had a-yokes attached in the rigger fashion. The P55 paratrooper liners were factory produced with the a-yokes under the a-washers, like WWII liners were. 

20220319_075715.jpg

20220319_075725.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

elh1311
3 hours ago, twthmoses said:

Great thread, love it!

 

I know mention before. The A-B-C etc. is the lift, the subdivision of a heat. The heat being one pot of molted iron purred into an ingot. One has to remember that it is not the shell producer, McCord, or any other producer for that matter, that subdivides the heat, it is the steel manufacture. The lot stamp, like 123A, is the shells producers’ representation of the steels manufactures heat and lifts numbers. I am sure some form of alignment of requirements has occurred between steel manufactures and shell produces beforehand, but to the shell producer it is really indifferent if you get 10000 discs of one heat subdivided or not. You just need to know, if you want to apply your own stamp for traceability. Either way the shell producer get the metal as discs.

 

Post-war McCord had five M1 contracts. Three in early 50s (51-53), a double contract in 1958 and one in 1965. Roughly 1.9 mill shells in all. Note, Motor Wheel got a M1 contract in May 1952 (production started in Sep 1952 at the Duo-Therm division plant No. 4, at Lansing, Michigan). They are not a sub-contractor to McCord. Essentially, there are no Korean War US produced M1 helmet. All contracts was award after the stalemate in Korea. Do not get me wrong plenty of fighting, bombing and shooting during the last two years of the Korean War, but the big movement faze of the first year was done using only WW2 helmets.

 

McCord Lot stamps from M-1A to about M-210A is from the 51-53 contracts. There is no subdivision of these heats, all are A. Lot M-211-A to about M-305-A are from the 1958 contract. Its a slightly different stamp, one more dash. There is no subdivision of these heats, all are A.  From 305 to about 345 is from the 1965 contract. Stamp are displayed different, now they look like “M 305 A”. No “–“and a spacing between number and letter. These stamps have lifts of A, B and C. I do not know the exact division between 51-53, 58 and 65 contract; I simply do not have enough samples to compare with. But they are within plus/minus 5-10 lots as stated above. Note, as McCord WW2 stamps there are errors. Statistic determines that there must be error, and there are. You can find lot stamps like –M267-A (58 stamp) or M167-A (51-53 stamp), or double stamps or stamps in weird places etc. I would be more than happy to see posted weird stamps. I love them.

 

Mccord postww3.png

Incredibly helpful!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Theriddler

Thanks guys this has been a very interesting group of postings. What I didn’t realise beforehand and what I know now is that my 3 post war (as in WW2) McCord helmets all came from different contracts. M169A 51-53, M254A 58 and finally M325B 65.

 

Everyday is a school day (-:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

etomilitaria

That is brilliant. Thanks again to @twthmosesfor sharing that information. I genuinely do not know if that info is available elsewhere online. Always something to learn with M-1s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

etomilitaria

This probably requires a separate post but in regards to post-WWII M-1 heat stamps, would I be right in saying that it is Ingersoll and RJ Stampings that cause the most confusion? McCord, Parish, and Motor Wheel Co. all seem fairly straightforward to at least identify but Ingersoll and RJ Stampings less so. Would you agree @twthmoses?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

twthmoses
On 3/23/2022 at 9:39 AM, etomilitaria said:

This probably requires a separate post but in regards to post-WWII M-1 heat stamps, would I be right in saying that it is Ingersoll and RJ Stampings that cause the most confusion? McCord, Parish, and Motor Wheel Co. all seem fairly straightforward to at least identify but Ingersoll and RJ Stampings less so. Would you agree @twthmoses?

You are correct. Ingersoll and R. J. Stampings are the most difficult to distractive. Ingersoll in itself are relative easy to spot, as it has the 1- in front of the stamp, - and it is a 1-, not an I-, as I- is a broken 1-.

 

Problems arises if the 1- is either not readable, weak stamped or completely missing. Then it looks remarkable similar to R. J. Stampings from the Smiths Falls plant, Aug 1981, stamps. However, there are a few hints alone the way. Ingersoll have manganese rims, while R. J. Stampings, Smiths Falls, have only stainless rims. Ingersoll always have four numbers in the stamps (preceded by zero if less), R. J. Stampings, Smiths Falls have one (speculative, never seen), two, three or four.

 

There is another R. J. stampings stamp, from the Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines plant. It is four large numbers. It’s the shells made from 70-77. For mysterious reasons they seem to be rarer (they do not come up too often) compared to Smiths Falls shells, despite 2.5mill made, vs. 650.000 at the Smiths Falls plant. The font is not the same, as either Ingersoll or Smiths Falls R. J. Stampings, but some of the numbers are remarkable similar to McCord WW2, while others to the 51-65 McCord font.

Little busy now, but hopeful I can post some examples of all the stamps in the weekend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

etomilitaria
5 minutes ago, twthmoses said:

You are correct. Ingersoll and R. J. Stampings are the most difficult to distractive. Ingersoll in itself are relative easy to spot, as it has the 1- in front of the stamp, - and it is a 1-, not an I-, as I- is a broken 1-.

 

Problems arises if the 1- is either not readable, weak stamped or completely missing. Then it looks remarkable similar to R. J. Stampings from the Smiths Falls plant, Aug 1981, stamps. However, there are a few hints alone the way. Ingersoll have manganese rims, while R. J. Stampings, Smiths Falls, have only stainless rims. Ingersoll always have four numbers in the stamps (preceded by zero if less), R. J. Stampings, Smiths Falls have one (speculative, never seen), two, three or four.

 

There is another R. J. stampings stamp, from the Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines plant. It is four large numbers. It’s the shells made from 70-77. For mysterious reasons they seem to be rarer (they do not come up too often) compared to Smiths Falls shells, despite 2.5mill made, vs. 650.000 at the Smiths Falls plant. The font is not the same, as either Ingersoll or Smiths Falls R. J. Stampings, but some of the numbers are remarkable similar to McCord WW2, while others to the 51-65 McCord font.

Little busy now, but hopeful I can post some examples of all the stamps in the weekend.

@twthmoses- thank you again. Please do share some more when you have time. Really appreciate your input here. It would be very good to see some definite heat stamps from RJ Stampings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

elh1311

So the M-365 A that I have, which puts in the 1965 McCord order, has rigger made chinstraps. That is, they are sewn on as opposed to crimped on. This helmet is a conundrum. All along, I thought it was 50's helmet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
twthmoses

Better late than never, eh? Finally came around to show some stamps. So here are some lot stamps to compare with.

 

Ingersoll Products Division of Borg-Warner Corporation shell stamp. Not to be confused with the Ingersoll Steel Division and Ingersoll Kalamazoo Division, both also part of Borg-Warner Corporation. Ingersoll got six contracts, from apr65 to apr67. Production ran from aug65 to july68. About 3.17 mill shells. All shells was produced at the Chicago plant.

 

Ingersoll stamps are easy to spot if it has the 1- in front. The stamps are always four numbers, preceded by zero if less. The lowest I have seen is 1-0131, highest is 1-9920. I imagen there is the possibility of five numbers or maybe a 2- instead, like 1-11534 or 2-0123. Who knowns, might surface some day? There is a limited number that has an A after the number, like 1-1234 A. Not entirely sure what it means. Does not look like a steel subdivision in the traditional sense. More like some sort of test shells. Many times the 1- is absent or broken in any given combo, like 1 1234, I-1234, -1234 or just 1234. Known ranges where it is practically bad is 1100-1170, 1845-1865, and most of 2300 and 4000. However, you can find them all over. When the 1- is missing, the font can be mistaken for 1980’s R. J. Stampings stamps. Ingersoll shells are always made with Manganese rims.

 

INGERSOLL_0133.jpg.95b91b1020f46c283bb0f56499456aa7.jpgINGERSOLL_0453.jpg.8a30b3eb002dd4ec9307037ec1cbc4b3.jpgINGERSOLL_1921.jpg.59dd59e8a7936c4dde4d0e73d7aaf811.jpgINGERSOLL_4071.jpg.808b98cf97fe4d05948ffed8c09225cb.jpgINGERSOLL_6251.jpg.8ae4be4023f7c7e51faa6d67eeb2b37d.jpgINGERSOLL_9662.jpg.eb7b691b80f1bfb23036a356421bb8b3.jpg

 

Parish Division of Dana Corporation shell stamp. This is the same Parish Pressed Steel Co. that made M1 helmets in 1945. At that time Parish was a subsidiary of Spicer Manufacturing Co. Spicer changed name to Dana Corp in 1946. Parish became a division in 1955 of Dana rather than a company (do not really know the difference?), known as the Parish Pressed Steel division and from 1965 simply as Parish division and in 1971 as Parish Frame Division. They got two contracts, oct68 and may69. About 1.86 mill shells in all. All shells was produced at the Trenton plant, Detroit, Michigan.

 

Parish stamps are also easy to spot, with its nice curving numbers, partially the 3-5-6 and 9 and the unique number 4. Parish stamps are always four numbers, preceded by zero if less. The lowest I have seen is 0041, highest is 9681. Shells are all made with Manganese rims.

 

PARISH_0052.jpg.309fb3c76df2c52864ee752ff32bd31b.jpgPARISH_4101.jpg.bcc832ea5b456e475b77b26e6d07a52f.jpgPARISH_4692.jpg.d34a97cd650072051d55665e5eb8a034.jpgPARISH_6541.jpg.344573925e403dac91e312879042b1b8.jpgPARISH_9361.jpg.90887f5b9c76e02d0b76ce6a6b35cee2.jpg

 

R. J. Stampings stamps. This little opportunistic company did not exist before they bet on a M1 contract and won. The owner ran a little Door Operator company, with some metal making involved, but had no prior experience with helmet making nor military equipment in general. It can be difficult to see how this company ended up with the 7 last DSA contracts for M1 helmet, but should be seen in the light that  R. J. Stampings did not get the contracts directly, but rather though the Canadian Commercial Corporation. The Canadian Commercial Corporation is a Canadian government owned corporation who makes trade contracts with foreign nations on government-to-government level on behalf of the Canadian industry. An intermediary with the backing of a nation’s resources.

 

R. J. Stampings had six contracts manufactured at the Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines plant (known as R.J Stampings Plant No. 2). It’s not entirely sure when R. J. Stampings acquired plant no. 2, so it is possible the first contract was manufactured at R. J. Stampings plant No. 1 in Montreal (same address as the Door Operator company that still ran), with the machinery later moved to plant no. 2. The six contracts was won from April 1970 to October 1976 (production ran august 1970 to august 1977). Only about 1 ½ year combined of these seven years did they not produced shells. About 2.5 mill were produced. These shells are made with Manganese rims. They are four large numbers. Never seen one under 1000, so I am unsure what happens here.

 

RJSTAMPINGS_4443.jpg.b2a8006dc6d07ca920f474947db06df7.jpgRJSTAMPINGS_6751.jpg.28135a803408ad09a01cc962ca6f3261.jpgRJSTAMPINGS_6755.jpg.2332c9db6f5fa419f97ae26baead659e.jpgRJSTAMPINGS_8561.jpg.46880c023f272a272838906feb8ba15d.jpgRJSTAMPINGS_8581.jpg.e25ee60abd7416d1798db6ed6dfcfd1e.jpg

 

The seventh contract was made at the Smiths Falls plant, Ontario (known as R.J Stampings Plant No. 5). The Smiths Falls plant was acquired in March 1979 and opened in August 1979. They made around 650.000 shells here from August 1981 to April 1982. This is the last US government contract for M1 helmets. These shells are made with stainless steel rims and sometimes have duct tape / styrofoam / cardboard residue around the loop area.

 

RJSTAMPINGS_507.jpg.31df3b178b3bbf1fae41680fe830c6fb.jpgRJSTAMPINGS_626.jpg.eae38984482818f071844ef0a3b860f2.jpgRJSTAMPINGS_700.jpg.ec8f5b21e7e95b19af1c0adb4f9b662d.jpgRJSTAMPINGS_809.jpg.7efe3e708df42a66b836ad50ad2bb711.jpg

 

What is curious is that Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines plant shells is rather rare – unlike the Smiths Falls plant shell, in the sense they do not surfaces too often. Now there can be countless explanations for that, people do not like them, people do not photograph them, do not post them etc... However, what is even stranger, when they do come up, it is always a high lot number, +4000. Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines shells below lot 4000 are unusually absent. So that got me thinking. The US supplied billions worth of equipment to the South Vietnamese army, including M1 helmet. They would need 100.000s if not millions of helmets for that. R.J Stampings contracts are right at the center of the South Vietnamese army taking over combat operations and the US starting to redeploy to the coastline / withdrawal. I think maybe a large part of R.J Stampings shells went to the South Vietnamese army, and thus they are now absent in the US.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

etomilitaria

@twthmoses - thank you very much! What an incredibly informative and useful post. It is very strange that RJ Stampings are uncommon to find but your theory is very compelling. I hope you are preparing an updated history of the M-1 helmet! Reynosa's books are fantastic but we need a new publication that contains the research you have pulled together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Theriddler

twthmoses

brilliant, thanks very much, a lot of very interesting information 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...