Navy Cross loss of detail on newer ones - Why?

[stratasfan]

Hi, All! I'm sitting here plowing through all the Navy Cross threads and saw something casually mentioned which I'd like  a little more discussion on. Comparing a post-WWII/Pre-Vn era one to a modern Graco NC, and there was a comment about the lack of detail in the newer ones compared to even the Vn-era ones and that the molds should have been redone years ago. 

 

So, would you say that the lack of detail on the new NCs is because the molds are wearing down and need to be re-struck? 

 

Appreciate any thoughts or opinions one this! Just curious!

 

Elizabeth

[MottTheHoople]

The dies are actually fine, it has to do with the way it is processed after being struck.

 

It used to be that after a medal was struck it experienced minimal finishing so much of the detail was preserved.  

 

Eventually part of the finishing process would include applying an "antique" finish.  This meant the medal was dipped or rubbed in a dark paint then it was wiped from the highlights leaving the dark paint in the low points.  This outlined the details of the medal for better visibility of the features.  Various manufacturers went about this process in different ways.  For example, some use a more gentle process to remove the paint.  Their medals retain their sharp detail and look nice but some have sharp edges and a certain percentage contain porosity that have to be scrapped. 

 

On the other hand, graco would dip their medals in paint then dump them in a giant vibrating tumbler with an abrasive media that would remove the paint from the highlights, smooth out any burrs & sharp edges as well as conceal any porosity.  This process was waaay more efficient and reduced scrap but beat the hell out of the medal and removed a lot of detail.

[Brig]

The anodized medals are absolute garbage, and look like they belong on a Vegas showgirl as tassles more than military members. The finish completely washes out the details and tends to get hazy over time, and because of the material they tend to fog. I do everything I can not to wear them. 

[manayunkman]

I dated a show girl and her tassels were very expensive.

 

She wouldn’t wear anything cheap.

 

[stratasfan]

11 hours ago, MottTheHoople said:

The dies are actually fine, it has to do with the way it is processed after being struck.

 

It used to be that after a medal was struck it experienced minimal finishing so much of the detail was preserved.  

 

Eventually part of the finishing process would include applying an "antique" finish.  This meant the medal was dipped or rubbed in a dark paint then it was wiped from the highlights leaving the dark paint in the low points.  This outlined the details of the medal for better visibility of the features.  Various manufacturers went about this process in different ways.  For example, some use a more gentle process to remove the paint.  Their medals retain their sharp detail and look nice but some have sharp edges and a certain percentage contain porosity that have to be scrapped. 

 

On the other hand, graco would dip their medals in paint then dump them in a giant vibrating tumbler with an abrasive media that would remove the paint from the highlights, smooth out any burrs & sharp edges as well as conceal any porosity.  This process was waaay more efficient and reduced scrap but beat the hell out of the medal and removed a lot of detail.

 

Thanks for the info! This is exactly what I was wondering. That last part about Graco reminds me of how sports whistles are made, when we went on a factory tour. I could see how it would remove a  lot of detail, especially when you are talking the level of detail in a small space/depth as on the planchets.

 

So, is there a current manufacturer that produces better quality medals at this point? Or is it down to Graco? 

[stratasfan]

11 hours ago, Brig said:

The anodized medals are absolute garbage, and look like they belong on a Vegas showgirl as tassles more than military members. The finish completely washes out the details and tends to get hazy over time, and because of the material they tend to fog. I do everything I can not to wear them. 

 

Question for you, as you have experience! :) Why are there anodized and non-anodized? Do you have to have both? Are they for specific uses? Did they start doing anodized at a certain era?

[MottTheHoople]

7 hours ago, stratasfan said:

 

Thanks for the info! This is exactly what I was wondering. That last part about Graco reminds me of how sports whistles are made, when we went on a factory tour. I could see how it would remove a  lot of detail, especially when you are talking the level of detail in a small space/depth as on the planchets.

 

So, is there a current manufacturer that produces better quality medals at this point? Or is it down to Graco? 

Graco is not the only manufacturer, they just did a great job of getting big contracts early on and pumping out a TON of extra medals at a really low price.  They also made medals for most of the state military forces / national guard so they were producing medals for all levels of government.  When Lee sold Graco several years ago a bunch of "controlled" medals flooded the market but it wasn't as bad the Lordship fiasco and I guess no one else seemed to notice or care.  Ownership has changed a couple times since then.

 

Of current manufacturers, I personally think Baldwin has some of the nicest looking medals in terms of sharpness of detail and overall quality.  They are the main supplier of medals to Vanguard in both regular & anodized finishes so when you buy medals from Vanguard either directly or at a military exchange, they are actually made by Baldwin.  In some cases, Vanguard will source from other Vendors for smaller runs, special requests, to fill shortages that sort of thing.  

 

I like the quality of medals from Officer's Equipment but have seen some of their minis WAY out of spec so that is clearly not acceptable.

 

I feel like there is one even worse than Graco and that is Ira Green previously known as Lordship.  Lordship used to make the worst looking medals.  Their "antiqing" procedure used some weird brown paint stuff and a similar tumbling procedure as Graco.  After Lordship got in trouble, they (the owners) bought Ira Green and kept using the same procedure so the medals made by Ira Green still look the same.

[Brig]

11 hours ago, stratasfan said:

 

Question for you, as you have experience! :) Why are there anodized and non-anodized? Do you have to have both? Are they for specific uses? Did they start doing anodized at a certain era?

Options. Non-anodized brass need to be hand polished, anodized don't need to be polished at all. In the USMC, we only need to have one or the other. However, our buttons and collar emblems must be made of the same material as our medals...and since they don't sell non-anodized buttons or EGAs anymore, by default we don't really have the choice. These days, the non-anodized ones pretty much exist for shadow boxes and retirees. The only instance I know of a Marine wearing non-anodized in recent years is the official portrait of Kyle Carpenter, and I suspect he was instructed to so that the medals didn't wash out in the camera flash like anodized junk would

[stratasfan]

On 3/5/2022 at 9:37 PM, Brig said:

Options. Non-anodized brass need to be hand polished, anodized don't need to be polished at all. In the USMC, we only need to have one or the other. However, our buttons and collar emblems must be made of the same material as our medals...and since they don't sell non-anodized buttons or EGAs anymore, by default we don't really have the choice. These days, the non-anodized ones pretty much exist for shadow boxes and retirees. The only instance I know of a Marine wearing non-anodized in recent years is the official portrait of Kyle Carpenter, and I suspect he was instructed to so that the medals didn't wash out in the camera flash like anodized junk would

 

You are allowed to have both . . . but they have to match the buttons and they only have one kind of buttons . . . Wow - what a choice. :) Thanks for the answer. So interesting. What/how do you polish the non-anodized ones? 

[Brig]

Brass-O

[doyler]

Sad to see the modern or current medals offered are not of the quality or strikes of years past. our military should have the best but remember the contracts go to the lowest bidder. Surpised most are not made in China (but look like it)