Engraved Numbered PURPLE HEART Question

[GAZOO]

  Picked this one up recently (along with a few more items named to him)
Reportedly Issued to
2nd LT THOMAS W FOWLER MOH Recipient
Does the Engraving look Right ?

His (Donated) Medal Of Honor is Displayed in TEXAS and viewable on line.
I can see it is Displayed with a few other items 1 being a Purple Heart
I suppose it could be a filler, Maybe ?

The PH I Have is ENGRAVED to Lt Fowler, so not sure of its Authenticity.

I would like to ask the Community what they think.
 

It is Numbered 366816 and appears to be produced by Rex Products and categorized
as TYPE IIc from that number Block.

It was received with the pictured case and Old paper name tag removed/re-taped type label

The Slot Broach is only sewn to the Ribbon through the back side of the hanging ribbon ?
you cant see the knot from the front, is that common ? its actually apart on one side but the
thread is still present.

 

The Number is not in the Data Base.
Being he was KIA Its possible the number was not recorded as these were sent to NOK from stateside
 

Do you see Are clues in the following photos that can either Prove or DISPROVE what this is

Ok here are some photos. ALL Comments WELCOME Good or Bad I would rather know
the truth and welcome the education

 

 

[kcmo]

Bad engraving.  Couple WWII engraved PHs for comparison.

 

 

 

 

[Blacksmith]

Agreed, unfortunately.  

[aerialbridge]

Paste, and schlocky at that.

[TGAZ]

I cannot speak to the engraving as I am not a Purple Heart expert (although I am by chance on page 83 - PH Engraving Styles of the Gleim Medal Letters) but the first thing that came to me was the green mold/aging on it. Why would a nice boxed PH start to have corrosion problems like this? That's usually a sign of trying to make a medal look old or to cover/distract from other alterations made to it. Faking aging is easy to do, and only takes a few minutes to do. Not that corroding medals don't exist, or that's what's happened here, but it's now a red flag the second I see it and I'm much more cautious as a result.

[GAZOO]

Thanks guys, Aw that stinks as that makes all items in this lot suspect

  The Purple Heart having a FAKE ENGRAVING is a sure sign this was an
INTENTIONAL DECEPTION

The only good point is this Group is no longer on the market Ready to punish NEW collectors,
A shame really as i can see this type of practice being a BIG BLOW to the community and collecting
on a whole. Once a New collector is burned I suspect they run away fast. I will choke it up as a
learning experience and even mount this MARKED fake AS a reminder

BTW Do we have a FAKE/DECEPTIVE/GROUP/ITEMS Page I could post this and the
other items in the group to ?

Oh it also came with a ENGRAVED Good Conduct Medal that should of caught my attention
after reading his COMMISSION Diploma from 1943 and KIA In 44 HOW would of he
be awarded a GOOD CONDUCT (3 YEARS Service I believe)

I will take photo's of the other items in this group as reference and post here 

Gazoo

[GAZOO]

9 hours ago, aerialbridge said:

Paste, and schlocky at that.

  Not sure I understand this ? is this another way of saying the Engraving or medal is not well done ?

[GAZOO]

7 hours ago, TGAZ said:

I cannot speak to the engraving as I am not a Purple Heart expert (although I am by chance on page 83 - PH Engraving Styles of the Gleim Medal Letters) but the first thing that came to me was the green mold/aging on it. Why would a nice boxed PH start to have corrosion problems like this? That's usually a sign of trying to make a medal look old or to cover/distract from other alterations made to it. Faking aging is easy to do, and only takes a few minutes to do. Not that corroding medals don't exist, or that's what's happened here, but it's now a red flag the second I see it and I'm much more cautious as a result.

I noticed the same thing about the Green spots ? and was considering trying to clean it off but not
worth the effort now. Thanks for your comment and insight if you run across any additional info
in your book about this please post as all info is helpful to us new collectors

[aerialbridge]

1 hour ago, GAZOO said:

  Not sure I understand this ? is this another way of saying the Engraving or medal is not well done ?

 

Howdy, sorry, I was using a slang term for fake gemstones.   A real PH like that would be a "gem", so to speak, and I agree with the others,  that machine engraving just ain't right by a long shot. Here's an example of an official, period, machine engraved Army KIA WWII PH to a sergeant who was awarded a Silver Star at Anzio before he was KIA at the "breakout" on May 23, 1944.  The pictures of the 2 other medals others posted here are correct hand-engraved WWII examples. By the way,  it's unnumbered, so don't think that all officially engraved Army WWII PHs are going to be numbered.

 

[GAZOO]

OK Just finished up taking a few more shots of the additional items in this group
Engraved, Boxed Good Conduct Medal
2nd LT Commission Cert on Parchment Paper (facsimile signature bottom right)
Not pictured Unit Presidential Citation Ribbon
Campaign Medal (unmarked)
WWII Victory Medal (unmarked)

 

 

[GAZOO]

10 minutes ago, aerialbridge said:

 

Howdy, sorry, I was using a slang term for fake gemstones.   A real PH like that would be a "gem", so to speak, and I agree with the others,  that machine engraving just ain't right by a long shot. Here's an example of an official, period, machine engraved Army KIA WWII PH to a sergeant who was awarded a Silver Star at Anzio before he was KIA at the "breakout" on May 23, 1944.  The pictures of the 2 other medals others posted here are correct hand-engraved WWII examples. 

 

 Thanks for the clarification YES It was going to be a JEWEL of my collection BUT not to be
Expensive Lesson but it will serve as a EDUCATIONAL LESSON for me and other new collectors
 

[GAZOO]

I would love to see the ENGRAVING on the back of the MOH
I found the newspaper article noting the presentation to his Family NOK

and wonder
if any of his other medals would of been presented at the same time
if so, Engraving I would expect to be similar ?

[aerialbridge]

1 hour ago, GAZOO said:

 Thanks for the clarification YES It was going to be a JEWEL of my collection BUT not to be
Expensive Lesson but it will serve as a EDUCATIONAL LESSON for me and other new collectors
 

I don't own any engraved WWII Army Good Conducts, but to my untrained eye, that is nice hand engraving.  As for the Commission,  perhaps others will weigh in.   It looks good to me, but not my collecting area, and I know paper can be faked, like just about everything else.  I just can't fathom that PH is officially engraved  WWII period for a MOH recipient, or any other GI.

[decwriter]

Excellent reference books for engraving are The Call Of Duty by LTC John E. Strandberg and Roger James Bender, 2nd Edition 2004, and Sacrifice Remembered by Dave Schwind, who is a moderator on this forum.  Dave's book is off the charts for very detailed pictures of Purple Hearts!

[GAZOO]

20 minutes ago, aerialbridge said:

I don't own any engraved WWII Army Good Conducts, but to my untrained eye, that is nice hand engraving.  As for the Commission,  perhaps others will weigh in.   It looks good to me, but not my collecting area, and I know paper can be faked, like just about everything else.  I just can't fathom that PH is officially engraved  WWII period for a MOH recipient, or any other GI.

I agree The PH is very questionable and leaning heavily on the side of FAKE. 
As for the Green / Aging not sure why anyone who was intentionally faking this would go through
the problem of Fake Aging ? being a numbered example I would not expect that needed to
be done but on the other hand a Old Poor Condition untraceable Numbered PH would be
a good candidate :)

Hopefully one day the NUMBER will show up on some official paper work and put this to rest
199%

Thanks for all you input, again I am very new to collecting Military Items. Just need to perfect
my eye and research ability's :) so any and all input is a valuable asset to me

[GAZOO]

I just did a COMPARISON of the Typed Labels with the Type on the Commission Diploma

Thinking if this was a fully faked group the TYPE WRITER used would possibly be the same ?

Found all the labels on the medal boxes (PH Case & Good Conduct Box) are Done by the SAME
typewiter as best I can determine

The Commission Diploma was done with a Different Type Writter
below is the little paper name tag from inside the GC medal box
compared to the type of the Commision

 

[GAZOO]

HEROES were alive and well that day Near Carano, Italy
TWO Different Medal Of Honor Winners on the same day in the same area dealing with Minefields

"On May 23, 1944, Lieutenant Fowler found himself in a desperate situation involving both armored and infantry forces near Carano, Italy. Assigned as a liaison officer to an infantry unit, Fowler, moving on foot ahead of his unit, witnessed two infantry platoons that were seriously disorganized in a German minefield.."

"Tech. Sgt Barfoot conducted patrols to scout the German lines. When his company was ordered to attack on the morning of 23 May 1944, Barfoot, now a technical sergeant, asked for permission to lead a squad. Because of the patrols he had made, he knew the terrain and the minefield which lay in front of the German position. He advanced alone through the minefield" near Carano, Italy.

[USMCR79]

National Archives shows at least 9 Thomas W. Fowler's who were enlisted men:

 

32008693FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########NEW YORKWARRENNEW YORK CITY NEW YORK41Civil Life19

32214293FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########NEW YORKNEW YORKCP UPTON YAPHANK NEW YORK42Civil Life20

32265989FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########NEW JERSEYBURLINGTONFT DIX NEW JERSEY42Civil Life20

32457312FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########NEW JERSEYESSEXNEWARK NEW JERSEY42Civil Life20

34547385FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########FLORIDADADECP BLANDING FLORIDA43Civil Life24

34787750FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########FLORIDADUVALCP BLANDING FLORIDA43Civil Life25

35689088FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########Undefined CodeUndefined CodeLOUISVILLE KENTUCKY42Enlisted Man, Regular Army, after 3 months of Discharge06

38413459FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########TEXASWICHITAHOUSTON TEXAS43Civil Life21

39746509FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########CALIFORNIASAN DIEGOFT MACARTHUR SAN PEDRO CALIFORNIA45Civil Life15

[GAZOO]

1 hour ago, USMCR79 said:

National Archives shows at least 9 Thomas W. Fowler's who were enlisted men:

 

32008693FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########NEW YORKWARRENNEW YORK CITY NEW YORK41Civil Life19

32214293FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########NEW YORKNEW YORKCP UPTON YAPHANK NEW YORK42Civil Life20

32265989FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########NEW JERSEYBURLINGTONFT DIX NEW JERSEY42Civil Life20

32457312FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########NEW JERSEYESSEXNEWARK NEW JERSEY42Civil Life20

34547385FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########FLORIDADADECP BLANDING FLORIDA43Civil Life24

34787750FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########FLORIDADUVALCP BLANDING FLORIDA43Civil Life25

35689088FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########Undefined CodeUndefined CodeLOUISVILLE KENTUCKY42Enlisted Man, Regular Army, after 3 months of Discharge06

38413459FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########TEXASWICHITAHOUSTON TEXAS43Civil Life21

39746509FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########CALIFORNIASAN DIEGOFT MACARTHUR SAN PEDRO CALIFORNIA45Civil Life15

Thanks so much He is the second from the bottom (TEXAS)
38413459 and matches the number I have

 

and I guess that Commission Diploma is important to establish which TOMAS W. FOWLER :)

 

 

[GAZOO]

BTW That 45th Division News (Nancy, France) is really interesting 1 article stats 45 STARS (silver,bronze) awarded

 

Fowler ARCHIVE info

 

[GAZOO]

4 hours ago, USMCR79 said:

National Archives shows at least 9 Thomas W. Fowler's who were enlisted men:

 

32008693FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########NEW YORKWARRENNEW YORK CITY NEW YORK41Civil Life19

32214293FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########NEW YORKNEW YORKCP UPTON YAPHANK NEW YORK42Civil Life20

32265989FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########NEW JERSEYBURLINGTONFT DIX NEW JERSEY42Civil Life20

32457312FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########NEW JERSEYESSEXNEWARK NEW JERSEY42Civil Life20

34547385FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########FLORIDADADECP BLANDING FLORIDA43Civil Life24

34787750FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########FLORIDADUVALCP BLANDING FLORIDA43Civil Life25

35689088FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########Undefined CodeUndefined CodeLOUISVILLE KENTUCKY42Enlisted Man, Regular Army, after 3 months of Discharge06

38413459FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########TEXASWICHITAHOUSTON TEXAS43Civil Life21

39746509FOWLER#THOMAS#W#########CALIFORNIASAN DIEGOFT MACARTHUR SAN PEDRO CALIFORNIA45Civil Life15

  Thinking this does muddy the waters with 9 same First MIDDLE & Last name Enlisted
Looks like authentication of the DIPLOMA is what I need to look into now

What are the odds SO MANY coincidences

[aerialbridge]

Given that there are apparently at least 9 Thomas W. Fowlers who were in the US Army during WWII,  the MoH recipient being 8th on the list someone posted ending in serial # digits "59" (Ive posted details below), I suspect the Good Conduct Medal you've pictured is genuine, but to one of the other 8 Thomas Fowlers.  And I'm pretty sure we'll never know which one.  If it's been paired up for sale with the obviously fake engraved Purple Heart, I'd guess that someone who acquired the GCM to another Thomas Fowler discovered there was a WWII second looie  MoH recipient of the same name and,  Viola, a fake engraved PH and commission were born and aged to perfection, for sale to someone who wouldn't know what a real WWII Army KIA PH should look like, as far as engraving.   But for the commission certificate to MoH awardee Fowler, I might think possibly, the PH was privately engraved to one of the other 9 Fowlers who received an unengraved one for WIA along with his engraved GCM, but with the certificate,  I discount that possibility.  But it could be just that, and someone added the commission certificate, which would make the old looking and labeled boxes, genuine, but for a different Thomas W Fowler. I seriously doubt the MoH Fowler, who was only an officer for months before he was commissioned, as he was a college graduate, was ever awarded an enlisted man's GCM.  Interesting that Fowler earned his MoH on May 23, 1944 during the breakout from Anzio, the day the sergeant whose PH I own and posted was KIA by a phosphorous shell in the breakout, no more than a few clicks away.  Since Fowler was KIA on June 5, 1944 at the end of the Anzio offensive,  his PH could be machine engraved and appear like the one I posted very likely, but possibly hand engraved like the other examples posted here. 

 

[Dave]

The photos aren't the best of the commission document, but it almost looks like a copy to me? I'm not a fan of it.

 

As stated earlier, the Purple Heart is definitely not correct. 

 

That said, I really like the Good Conduct medal. It looks just fine to me and the engraving is what I'd expect to see.

 

I have a hunch someone built a group around a named Good Conduct medal. 

[Bruce Linz]

I agree with Dave.  The Fowler Good Conduct medal is a beautiful example of a WWII engraved good conduct medal.  During World War II the Army issued good conduct medals for one year of service, hence many officers commissioned from the enlisted ranks were entitled to one.  Unfortunately, the building of a grouping around a single named medal, document, uniform, or other artifact is a pretty old dodge in this hobby.  Sad.

[GAZOO]

7 hours ago, aerialbridge said:

Given that there are apparently at least 9 Thomas W. Fowlers who were in the US Army during WWII,  the MoH recipient being 8th on the list someone posted ending in serial # digits "59" (Ive posted details below), I suspect the Good Conduct Medal you've pictured is genuine, but to one of the other 8 Thomas Fowlers.  And I'm pretty sure we'll never know which one.  If it's been paired up for sale with the obviously fake engraved Purple Heart, I'd guess that someone who acquired the GCM to another Thomas Fowler discovered there was a WWII second looie  MoH recipient of the same name and,  Viola, a fake engraved PH and commission were born and aged to perfection, for sale to someone who wouldn't know what a real WWII Army KIA PH should look like, as far as engraving.   But for the commission certificate to MoH awardee Fowler, I might think possibly, the PH was privately engraved to one of the other 9 Fowlers who received an unengraved one for WIA along with his engraved GCM, but with the certificate,  I discount that possibility.  But it could be just that, and someone added the commission certificate, which would make the old looking and labeled boxes, genuine, but for a different Thomas W Fowler. I seriously doubt the MoH Fowler, who was only an officer for months before he was commissioned, as he was a college graduate, was ever awarded an enlisted man's GCM.  Interesting that Fowler earned his MoH on May 23, 1944 during the breakout from Anzio, the day the sergeant whose PH I own and posted was KIA by a phosphorous shell in the breakout, no more than a few clicks away.  Since Fowler was KIA on June 5, 1944 at the end of the Anzio offensive,  his PH could be machine engraved and appear like the one I posted very likely, but possibly hand engraved like the other examples posted here. 

 

Thanks so much for your expert/educated opinion, I just purchased another COMMISSION DIPLOMA from
the same time-frame for comparison BUT after looking at it under magnification I suspect ITS A FAKE as well
the SIGNATURE at the bottom right is OBVIOUSLY printed when the rest of the print was done, it is typed but
but thats not hard to do.

ALL the photos I have found on line showing these Diplomas are what looks like ORIGINALLY SIGNED
so I will have my proof when the other one arrives but I am 99% sure its a FAKE.

 

also looks like wwii GCM were issued after 1 year during the war which would of placed it very near his
KIA date so again probably not his

 

BTW MAY 23 1944 There were 7 YES SEVEN MOH awarded that ONE DAY (ANZIO operation SHINGLE)
more than D-DAY I need to research Pearl Harbor to see if this may be the SINGLE most DAY in history
that so many were doing MEDAL OF HONOR acts