Dave Posted February 18, 2022 Author Share #26 Posted February 18, 2022 Here are a couple of more images, sent by a fellow forum member of one in their collection: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 18, 2022 Author Share #27 Posted February 18, 2022 The front (not as clear - no need to clean your glasses...LOL) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 18, 2022 Author Share #28 Posted February 18, 2022 What I really like about the image of this one is you can see clearly the edge of the arrowhead (red arrow pointing to it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normandie Posted February 18, 2022 Share #29 Posted February 18, 2022 What is also interesting to compare the dots between the words at the reverse of the medal. The dots on the reference pictures about BB&B pieces have smaller and better pronounced appearance, but the eBay specimen has bigger and flatter dots. The reference photos by Dave shows the BB&B manufactured piece (small ring, this has the small serial number and what is also worth observing is the upper arm - even the small section was enameled where the white color is visible). On the other contract by Joseph Mayer the ring is the generic, bigger size, it has the bigger serial numbers and as I observed the small portion is not enameled with white color because of the placement of the wreath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normandie Posted February 18, 2022 Share #30 Posted February 18, 2022 Maybe I am wrong but these latest pictures show a Joseph Mayer piece. These have the zigzag pattern behind the red enamel on the obverse and reverse as well, however the BB&B manufactured ones have flat backgrounds both front and back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftStalg1 Posted February 18, 2022 Share #31 Posted February 18, 2022 It just doesn't seem to be of the proper quality, in my opinion. And this is just mid way through the production.of 200!?c I can not believe the die and hub would be in such poor shape already. And the color doesn't seem right for an early one. How many have that much gold plating still on them? And I am assuming they were also sterling base metal and this one has NO tarnish of the underlying metal. Years ago I thought about making one for display. And for that kind of money I may just do it now, for display and MARKED as a fake of course. Should I go that route I will post my process here like I did with the Rickenbacker display. They are beautiful pieces of art in my mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxfall Posted February 18, 2022 Share #32 Posted February 18, 2022 Here are two rare pieces. The one with the split brooch is one of the actual prototypes, and the second is an absolutely genuine 1st type LOM. Perhaps these will help in providing examples of what the correct originals look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manayunkman Posted February 18, 2022 Share #33 Posted February 18, 2022 Did anyone else make this medal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan H. Posted February 18, 2022 Share #34 Posted February 18, 2022 1 minute ago, manayunkman said: Did anyone else make this medal? Joseph Mayer had a run of 100 of them. The numbers on the brooch run from 6001 to 6100. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manayunkman Posted February 18, 2022 Share #35 Posted February 18, 2022 38 minutes ago, Allan H. said: Joseph Mayer had a run of 100 of them. The numbers on the brooch run from 6001 to 6100. Allan No one else besides Mayer and BB&B? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manayunkman Posted February 18, 2022 Share #36 Posted February 18, 2022 If this piece is authentic the only explanation is that someone at BB&B did this for who knows what reason. Could they have made a double sided planchette without the struck arrows and then drilled them out to see what it would look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmar Posted February 18, 2022 Share #37 Posted February 18, 2022 An old list that was being accumulated years ago for Legionaire and Officer grades. I can confirm the Irons & Russell as I have a WW II numbered Officer example with their hallmark on the top of the suspension that falls into the number range: Makers BB & B American Emblem Irons & Russell UNCAS Dieges & Clust Robbins These are the main manufacturers of the numbered variations: BBB 1 thru 1895/1900 Irons & Russell 2600 - 2700 Jos Mayer 2800 UNCAS 3100 to 3600 American Emblem 3600 to 4000 Iron & Russell 4100 to 4300 UNCAS 4300 to 4600 4700 to 5000 large # (?) Jos Mayer 6000 to 6600 Jos Mayer 7200 to 7300 8000 large # (?) Diegest & Clust 10,400 11,000 Jos Mayer 11,000 to 13,000 Robbins 14,000 to 16,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m1903 Posted February 18, 2022 Share #38 Posted February 18, 2022 Maybe this is a legit BB & B that was rejected and left thru the back door ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted February 18, 2022 Share #39 Posted February 18, 2022 Someone should ask Alan Menke. Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmar Posted February 18, 2022 Share #40 Posted February 18, 2022 33 minutes ago, KASTAUFFER said: Someone should ask Alan Menke. Kurt Agreed, he could put it to rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftStalg1 Posted February 18, 2022 Share #41 Posted February 18, 2022 Well someone went with the BIN. Hopefully it was someone hear and we can get some answers in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MottTheHoople Posted February 18, 2022 Share #42 Posted February 18, 2022 This medal was 100% pierced intentionally by hand to deceive collectors. It was done by hand and not by a piercing die as it should be. The enamel on the back looks awful and the brooch has clearly been messed with. There is not a single thing I like about this medal. Without holding it in person I would guess they probably used an unfinished planchet & just enameled both sides themselves (that would the smartest move). They could have easily matched it, though. Just plain white & clear enamel with a touch of red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KurtA Posted February 18, 2022 Share #43 Posted February 18, 2022 Check out the 2nd (darker) LOM in post #32. Stated to be 100% original prototype. The arrow finishing is not as clean as some of the other “uncontroversial” examples . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 19, 2022 Author Share #44 Posted February 19, 2022 1 hour ago, KurtA said: Check out the 2nd (darker) LOM in post #32. Stated to be 100% original prototype. The arrow finishing is not as clean as some of the other “uncontroversial” examples . I don't think the scans are that good. I'd be interested in better scans before making a declaration one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0811gysgt Posted February 19, 2022 Share #45 Posted February 19, 2022 Here are my two examples of this medal. The left is the Bailey, Banks and Biddle #2 to Colonel Thomas H. Lowe and the right is Joseph Mayer #6100, which would be the last one of the production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manayunkman Posted February 19, 2022 Share #46 Posted February 19, 2022 2 hours ago, MottTheHoople said: This medal was 100% pierced intentionally by hand to deceive collectors. It was done by hand and not by a piercing die as it should be. The enamel on the back looks awful and the brooch has clearly been messed with. There is not a single thing I like about this medal. Without holding it in person I would guess they probably used an unfinished planchet & just enameled both sides themselves (that would the smartest move). They could have easily matched it, though. Just plain white & clear enamel with a touch of red. I took another look at the enameling on the questioned medal and you can see where the white enamel has spilled out of its boundaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeK Posted February 19, 2022 Share #47 Posted February 19, 2022 Interesting discussion. I'll make one point. From what I can see on EVERY SINGLE MEDAL shown above, the voiding around the arrows has been DONE BY HAND. When you actually look very carefully, no two medals have exactly the same cutouts. Even the voids on individual medals are not EXACTLY the same and if using any sort of die, they HAVE to be exactly the same. There is imo no way the arrow shafts would have survived any attempt at being punched out by a finishing die. If they could have, then the voids around a given pair of crossed arrows would be exactly the same from one medal to the next (from the same manufacturer of course), but they are not. To me, it is obvious that the process for voiding the arrows was to first drill a number of small holes and then use a very fine flat file to tidy up the edges. This was not an uncommon practice and was used by jewelers in many countries - it still is! It's labour intensive though, which is imo why later LoM versions (WW2 onwards) produced in much higher numbers do not have voided arrows. For me, the medal in question, #112, was finished after the holes were drilled but before the voids were FULLY filed/finished, plain and simple. Some filing is evident on most (not all) voids. Poor QC from a collector's perspective in 2022, but even the best make mistakes from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LYONSJ9 Posted February 19, 2022 Share #48 Posted February 19, 2022 I believe the seller is disgraced collector Steve Pyne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MottTheHoople Posted February 19, 2022 Share #49 Posted February 19, 2022 13 hours ago, MikeK said: There is imo no way the arrow shafts would have survived any attempt at being punched out by a finishing die. If they could have, then the voids around a given pair of crossed arrows would be exactly the same from one medal to the next (from the same manufacturer of course), but they are not. The legion of merit chief commander is a currently produced medal that has a pierced planchet, also made from red brass, with arrow shafts fully intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3mxd Posted February 19, 2022 Share #50 Posted February 19, 2022 12 hours ago, LYONSJ9 said: I believe the seller is disgraced collector Steve Pyne. He is Steve Pyne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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