Odd first type Legion of Merit. Fake or real?

[Dave]

This Legion of Merit popped up on eBay recently. It's still available...which tells me something. Regardless, it looks highly suspicious to me - it appears that someone took a drill and cleaned out the area between the arrows. However, it seems strange that it would  have enamel on the reverse, were it a fake. I looked through the Legion of Merit Showcase thread and didn't see any that were this rough - they all looked much cleaner. 

 

Thoughts??

[wartimecollectables.com]

I can't tell about having been cut out post production but the early LoM was pierced and the reverse enameled by BB&B and are rarer then hen's teeth!

[jmar]

Dave,

 

As tight as things have been for me recently I was ready to pull the trigger on this one (and sell off something I wasn't planning on) until I too noticed the roughness of the pierced arrows. I've never held one in hand so I don't know for sure, but for a BB&B piece I'd have expected a little smoother finish. The enamel on the reverse looks a bit off near the edges of the cross as well. It'll be interesting to watch. The last real one I remember seeing posted was by Adam Rohloff years ago on this forum.

 

Best to you,

 

Joe

 

 

[LuftStalg1]

23 minutes ago, jmar said:

As tight as things have been for me recently I was ready to pull the trigger on this one (and sell off something I wasn't planning on) until I too noticed the roughness of the pierced arrows. I've never held one in hand so I don't know for sure, but for a BB&B piece I'd have expected a little smoother finish. The enamel on the reverse looks a bit off near the edges of the cross as well. It'll be interesting to watch. The last real one I remember seeing posted was by Adam Rohloff years ago on this forum.

 Same here Joe, and the overall quality just doesn't look up to par to me.

[jmar]

To all who read,

 

I would like to add to this thread, I doubt this is a deliberate attempt to fraud by the seller, I've made glaring mistakes myself before, but it's good that we have this open forum to discuss the pros and cons of an expensive and rare medal.

 

Joe

[KurtA]

I like it. Notice how the red enamel on the reverse perfectly matches that of the obverse. How could that be matched? 
I’ll be the lone guy who thinks it’s legit. 

[wartimecollectables.com]

Gotta agree with Kurt.

[Dave]

9 minutes ago, KurtA said:

I like it. Notice how the red enamel on the reverse perfectly matches that of the obverse. How could that be matched? 
I’ll be the lone guy who thinks it’s legit. 

 

That was what I couldn’t figure out. I don’t think anyone would re enamel the piece, but the cut outs didn’t match the ones I found on this forum. That’s where I’m kind of at a loss on it.

[Dave]

Here’s the one Adam posted in this thread:

 

 

[KurtA]

Note that it also has the proper wrap brooch with drop-in catch. And proper #ing style below 200. Too many things are “right” with this medal. 

As far as the substandard arrow finishing goes, perhaps it was done towards the end of the Friday afternoon shift. 

[jmar]

12 hours ago, KurtA said:

Note that it also has the proper wrap brooch with drop-in catch. And proper #ing style below 200. Too many things are “right” with this medal. 

As far as the substandard arrow finishing goes, perhaps it was done towards the end of the Friday afternoon shift. 

Kurt, you pose very valid points, and I am inclined to agree it's probably legit. From my side however, I'd wait for one more finished like Adam's post. Once you get into the 4-digit cost range I personally don't like to compromise on quality!

 

An enjoyable thread, love seeing the collective mind at work!

 

Best to all,

 

Joe

[Normandie]

I came across this listing within the first hour when it was added to eBay and started to plan how to purchase it (looking for a pierced arrow piece for several years now). Then I started to examine and compare the details with examples previously posted on the forums.

I also noticed the rough edges and burrs around the arrows. Under the ST letters of "STATES" and especially under OF I see these round shapes like the material was removed by a round/ball head drill bit. I also see some leftover materials around the tip of the arrows under the STA letters of "STATES" and the word "OF". The enameling however made me thinking but I don't think it is impossible to replicate the original color and shade, especially if you contact someone with experience with fire enamels. I found some videos on torch enameling when you don't have to heat the whole item but sections where you want to add the enamel itself. I think a professional jeweler or an enameling specialist can professionally do it and at the end it worth all the time and trouble looking at the current price.

 

Also this exact same medal was up for sale on eBay back in December 9, 2019 but that time without a case: https://world-war-medals.com/2019/12/09/wwii-rare-legion-of-merit-pierced-arrows-numbered-medal-ww2-wrap-brooch/

[Dave]

That's very interesting. I've added a screenshot of the above link for archiving. 

 

Does anyone have one of these where they can take photos of the area around the arrows? What I don't know (I've never handled one of these) is if the arrows are cut out or molded. I always assumed they were part of the die, like the more senior LOMs. I'm a bit surprised that BB&B would create a medal that required the hand-removal of material from around the arrows...but then again, maybe that's why so few were made. 

 

[Basic Rifleman]

I debated posting the following, but my conscience got the better of me, and I would have felt bad not posting this after the sale because it appears several forum members are still debating on whether to bid on this medal. The following is just my opinion, and is no way a dig at the seller...

 

The fact this conversation is even taking place here, should be the first clue this medal might be no good. While the comment above about this medal being made at 5 p.m. on a Friday was funny, there's just no way the folks at BB&B would have let that sort of thing pass. N.S. Meyer... maybe, but not a maker who's reputation was built on quality. I would say most everyone here would come to the same conclusion if the known BB&B medal shown by Adam R and the one on eBay were in their hands, and you could examine both in natural light, and under magnification.  

 

The overall fit and finish of the eBay medal is just not at the same level as the one shown here; it's not even close. The details on the Medal Adam R posted are crisp and bold, and are especially evident in the lettering and in the arrows. I feel a qualifier of sorts is necessary here - I spent several years studying and grading coins under one of the most well known numismatists in the hobby. I know we're not talking about coins here, but when one is looking for details in die stamping, there's little difference in high quality vintage coins, medals, tokens, etc. When examining details, and your first thought is "this doesn't quite look right" the subject turns out "not right" the overwhelming majority of the time; almost always in fact.

 

"Normandie" pointed this out above, and also made another point of showing this same medal was sold recently - not a great look for such a rare medal. 

 

In case this was a sticking point for some... The numbering on the brooch can be done with period punch dies (you can buy a whole kit on eBay for less than $50).    You can also find an experienced jeweler to enamel something like this (or learn yourself) very inexpensively. If you look up enamel jewelry making on YouTube, It's actually a fairly straight forward process, and materials can be bought from most craft stores or online for $10 or so. The only difficult part of "creating" this early BB&B example of a LOM would be the detail work around the arrows. This is what caught the original poster's eye, and what I'll conclude with. None of the arrows are uniform, and despite using the smallest of micro drill bits, there's still going to be imperfections - notably small arcs (semi circles) where the bit bites or digs into the material. This is especially evident when looking at the reverse of this eBay medal. Note the uniformity of the arrows and how crisp and clean the details are on the forum medal, then look at the one on eBay.  Not even close.

 

 

[Dave]

Here's another thread with one. Maybe @0811gysgt could add some close up photos of the arrows on his (if he still has it?) 

 

 

[Dave]

Here's a photo of one from a JOMSA article. Not sure if this is a BBB or if this is the later contract. What's interesting is that the tips of the arrows do not appear to touch the wreath. Would like to get better photos from someone who has one currently (or took really good photos when they owned one...)

 

http://www.omsa.org/files/jomsa_arch/Splits/2008/87174_JOMSA_Vol59_2_07.pdf

 

 

[Dave]

Here's a link about Adam R's LOM:

 

 

[Dave]

More of a close up from the JOMSA article, linked above. The red arrow points to the gap between the arrow and the wreath. 

[Dave]

Since the forum software reduces the size of the image...here's one that's hopefully as bit as I was wanting...

[Dave]

Blowing up the image from the eBay listing, it's pretty different from the JOMSA article image:

[Dave]

Here's a photo of the two medals, side by side:

 

 

[Dave]

And just for clarification: I'm not trying to bash the seller or anything. What I'm concerned about (and what's not connecting in my head) is that the medal on eBay currently has full enamel on the reverse, and it's done quite well. If someone were to have taken a later LOM and enameled it, they did a fantastic job of doing such. And then that brings into question the sub-par job they did at cutting out the arrows. That's where I'm scratching my head from a numismatic standpoint. 

[Dave]

And here are a couple of scans from Strandberg and Bender's The Call of Duty (New Expanded Edition) taken from page 148. 

Link to the book (h/t to the authors: https://www.amazon.com/Call-Duty-Expanded-John-Strandberg/dp/0912138955 )

 

 

[Dave]

And a closer shot, showing (again) the space between the edge of the arrowhead and the wreath:

[Dave]

In my head, I could see that there could be some leftover flashing from where the medal was struck, but it seems from the others I've found that there's very limited to no flashing remaining on the planchets. It also seems that on the LOM on eBay the flashing (if that's what it was) was cleaned out using both a rotating tool (or round file) and a flat file, as there appear to be flat spots where the material was chipped/filed away and then round spots, particularly on some of the arrow shafts, where the file or bit cut too deeply.