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WWII FIXED LOOP SCHLUETER W OD7 STRAPS


Paddyd00
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I managed to scavenge a few cheapo odd and ends around here recently. One of them was this Nice Schlueter Fixed loop. Seller said he found it in an NJ storage facility that hadn’t been open for decades (but who knows). Handling many of these over the years it certainly seems untouched with barely any handling darkening the appearance. It has “the smell” we all know and love. Underrated in determining originals in my opinion. If we collectors could only bottle the smell.

 

There is a light dusting of OD paint on the interior and exterior. I can’t read the Lot# but looking at the Fixed Loops connection to the helm it looks like a Schlueter w the rounded welds. More so than the profile does. In researching some topics… I know members here have posted the occasional fixed loop Schlueters w OD7 straps. I think this guy could be a candidate for one of the transitionals before switching to Swivels (I think Grants Schlueter Database lists 1 or 2 of these). The bartacking is done sloppily but the thread type and color seems correct to me. The chinstraps also don’t appear to have ever been issued before they were attached.  No other thread marks or holes.  So I am guessing it’s not collector added. Both are done identically almost like a uncalibrated machine or a “Friday Job” but I am no seamstress so I don’t know. Perhaps period added at a depot or something as well. Thread is sunk tightly into the straps and has light discoloration to the white that happens over a long time. There also seems to be a Lacquer spill or something staining the back.

 

The liner is a nice condition early Westinghouse with the HBT webbing folded under the unpainted A washers.

 

Anyway ...nice plain jane w some cool features

 

Thanks for looking

Z

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Indeed a good-looking helmet. It is not a Schlueter though, it is a McCord. These are 1st style fixed McCord loops, they are the ones used by McCord till lot 188. You have a lovely early McCord shell. Post an image of the lot number, maybe others can see it. Maybe you have a really early shell, like a 1941?

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10 hours ago, twthmoses said:

Indeed a good-looking helmet. It is not a Schlueter though, it is a McCord. These are 1st style fixed McCord loops, they are the ones used by McCord till lot 188. You have a lovely early McCord shell. Post an image of the lot number, maybe others can see it. Maybe you have a really early shell, like a 1941?

It is a close call for my eyes then.  I will say the Profile as said above I didn't feel like it looked like a Schuly.  Good Info from you as always .... I will snap some more shots of the interior at some point but as I recall I couldn't see the lot w a light dusting of OD on the interior.  Thanks!

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First off: good looking helmet. But like twthmoses I don't think it's a Schlueter either. Sometimes on McCord lids you can also find more rounded loop feet. See picture below (McCord heatstamp 395) Another give away are the spot welds at the front seam. More oval shaped: McCord, round shaped: Schlueter. As for the tacking of the chinstraps they don't look like factory applied ones but probably field or depot applied like you suggested.  Also below a picture of a Schlueter with OD 7 chinstraps. 

SAM_0383.JPG.6dda197002237452eedc663e8dda7549.JPG

 

post-169612-0-44076400-1570368450_thumb.jpg.84266cd69cfb3e98b2c0a28f1543ab2b.jpg

 

post-169612-0-25594200-1570368601_thumb.jpg.8c53deb3df19ab5f92e216e24fa382fe.jpg

 

 

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2 hours ago, Dogsbody said:

First off: good looking helmet. But like twthmoses I don't think it's a Schlueter either. Sometimes on McCord lids you can also find more rounded loop feet. See picture below (McCord heatstamp 395) Another give away are the spot welds at the front seam. More oval shaped: McCord, round shaped: Schlueter. As for the tacking of the chinstraps they don't look like factory applied ones but probably field or depot applied like you suggested.  Also below a picture of a Schlueter with OD 7 chinstraps. 

SAM_0383.JPG.6dda197002237452eedc663e8dda7549.JPG

 

post-169612-0-44076400-1570368450_thumb.jpg.84266cd69cfb3e98b2c0a28f1543ab2b.jpg

 

post-169612-0-25594200-1570368601_thumb.jpg.8c53deb3df19ab5f92e216e24fa382fe.jpg

 

 

Good reference brother and yes. The spot welds. Indeed another factor used in determining maker. And Nice Lid!

Z

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On 12/22/2021 at 1:08 PM, Paddyd00 said:

It is a close call for my eyes then.  I will say the Profile as said above I didn't feel like it looked like a Schuly.  Good Info from you as always .... I will snap some more shots of the interior at some point but as I recall I couldn't see the lot w a light dusting of OD on the interior.  Thanks!

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Yes, it is not always easy to see a Schlueter from a McCord shell, but there are several ways to do so.

 

The two commonly known are the shell shape and the spot welds by the seam. Both fairly easy to use, but not always good (enough). Especially shape can be difficult. Helps greatly if you already have a Schlueter and a McCord shell on hand to compare with. It is true spot welds usually will do the trick; Schlueter usually have small round crisp spot welds, while McCord more oval/half circle and far from always crisp. Every now and then, this does not hold true for either.

 

There are more ways though.

 

Obviously if you can see the S under the lot number, you know it is a Schlueter. Easy! The numbers themselves are different from Schlueter to McCord. All of them. Some requires a little experience to see, while others are distinctive different, notable the 1 and 7. If you have a one or seven in the lot number, you know immediately if it is a Schlueter or McCord. Second if the lot number is above 600 (560) you know for sure it is a Mccord. Third if the letter of the lot number (the lift) is larger than C, it is also a McCord. Schlueter only made A, B, and C lifts – C being extremely rare, but they do exist. McCord increased the number of lifts as time went by; Schlueter increased the number of shells per lift. It is a common misconception that Schlueter made around 2mill helmets; they made over 3mill, half of these in 1944 alone. Schlueter made roughly 2000 shells per lift in 1943, increasing to 3000 during 1944, ending up around 4000 shells per lift from late 1944 and 1945. McCord ran either around 1600 or 2400 shells per lift all war long, depending whether the ingot ran through a slabbing mill + plate mill or blooming mill + bar mill, but the ingot size were increased, producing more lifts. This is why it is far easier to find a high Schlueter lot number than a low one, there are simply many more Schlueter shells with high numbers. For McCord it about equal, but high lifts (above H) are more difficult to find. However, Mccord has one exception, the 400 range. For mysterious reasons the 400 range (400-499) is notable less likely to pop up compared to all another ranges, 25-1300.

 

Both Schlueter and McCord used fixed loops. Schlueter used just one type, from lot 01 to roughly 212, while McCord used two types. One from lot 25 to 188 (first style/rounded) and another from 189 to 793 (second style/square). Of course, McCord also made C-loops for M2 shells, in the range 188-235. Should be said that McCord sports a number of late drawn discs in the 94-109 range, with later loops. Aside from visible difference in appearance of the two McCord fixed loops, there is also a difference in the angle they are attached to the shell with. First style loops are straighter up in the air, while second style has a much smaller angle towards the side of the shell.

 

860378060_Mccordfixedloops1ststyle_002.jpg.7209276ea32fccd177827234e58a6ba0.jpg

 

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Another hint, which is technical not a loop thing, but rather the rim, are the dimples between the loops. Schlueter shells fixed or movable loops do not have dimples. McCord fixed loops from lot 25 to 622 have dimples. McCord fixed loops from lot 623 to 793 do not have dimples, and neither do movable loop from lot 794 to 1300.

 

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Great info @twthmoses and photo essay dude! Yes. I personally have never had to go above and beyond the “S” or using the flatter profile which is usually pretty obvy. Have about 9 Schulys (most are USN). All are pretty well marked. This breakdown is killer and the contrast in the photos and research is 🤌. Thanks for taking the time 

Z

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