Fake WWI DSC/ Navy Cross group eBay Seller bigp63

[C. Roelens]

4 hours ago, warguy said:

Ok Chuck, so I have been wrong before….my wife might suggest maybe even more than once, ha! Everyone cant always get it right all the time. That’s a lot of cash for this helmet, and I never saw the ebay listing, but based on the photo posted here, I was pretty detailed in my concerns on this helmet. I will re-articulate:

 

1.) A 2/6 helmet without a brown painted shell which you see on the majority of these helmets.

2.) Paint on the front that doesn’t conform to another artist/style I have seen for this Company.

3.) I will add-an ega mounted high whereas ALL of the 2/6 helmets I have seen are mounted low.

4.) Age on the paint that just doesn’t look right (to me at least) at first glance….no scrapes, even smooth finish across surface,un-discernible brush strokes, etc.

5.) Sold by a seller with a history of selling put together lots and suspect artifacts.

 

So please, tell us, why do you think it is real and to an identified true warrior? I know there are no absolutes in this hobby, but I must have missed something here. Inquiring minds want to know. 

Hello Kevin, I have read your concerns/opinions. Like mine, they're only opinions. You can no more convince me it's fake than I can convince you that it's real... so below are my opinions:

 

1.) I agree, however, a 2/6 helmet w/o brown paint does not make it suspect. Some were not.

2.) Correct, however, because it doesn't conform to the norm doesn't make it suspect. Some were individually painted. 

3.) True! The punched-in hole is correct. Could explain why another wasn't punched low, and the shell painted brown. Some 2/6 helmets had no EGA, and some were punched low, and center mast.  

4.) Like all painted WWI USMC helmets, they are post war painted. Pvt Viera was WIA, maybe he wasn't there to have his helmet painted up by the Company artist. Its surely post war painted, but doesn't conform to the scumbags that were humping these up since the 70's.

5.) I don't know the seller personally, but communication with him was honest. I could have had the entire grouping for $3,500.00, however, I was not convinced some of the medals belonged to Viera. I told him this, hence the reason he took them down.

 

You did not mention the name and serial number written inside the liner. The name Viera and serial number 88559 are correct. On the MPR roster it is Vierra 99559. So, which is correct?

 

Lastly, this Marine was awarded the DSC, NC, and more... would you not consider him, or anyone else for that matter... a Warrior?   

 

Now back to Christmas... Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!

 

Chuck

[warguy]

Hey Chuck thanks for your reply. First and foremost, Merry Christmas to you and yours. I hope you and your loved ones have a great holiday season. 

 

I was interested in hearing your opinion because I respect it. I know you have been collecting a long time as well, and have had a number of nice WWI Marine Corps helmets in your hands. This was more about wanting to know your thoughts, than trying a win a debate. I agree with all your assessments. In the end, it’s just one too many “red flags” for me to have bid, especially at that price, but like you said, we all have our opinions. As I had mentioned, I never actually saw the listing, AND I was NOT aware the helmet was named. Was there other corresponding memorabilia with that name with the helmet? I always worry that unscrupulous dealers only need a fountain pen and a copy fo the 4th Regiment Roster to stick a name on a helmet or uniform. As you know, the Roster isnt difficult to find, and because it also lists service numbers and the Company the Marine served in, it’s pretty east to “get it right” so to speak. I remember another long time forum member coming across several Marine names stamped inside some Marine WWI Service Tunics that came to market at the same time. In the end, he (and others who looked at them) determined that stamps were recent additions, but they did match real names and appropriate companies on the roster. It was very coincidental that four or five tunics surfaced at once with the same style of block letters stamped inside. I have about a dozen in my collection, and none are stamped like that.

 

Finally, I have read extensively about the  exploits of the Marines who fought in WWI. Trust me, I dont believe any formal accolade such as a Navy Cross, or DSC is required to call all these men “warriors”. The courage on the field of battle shown by these Marines should inspire all who study their history and collect their artifacts. Our country would be stronger if our schools did more to emphasise this history in our classrooms. Warrior is the most modest compliment we can offer these brave souls. 

 

Anyway again, thanks for expressing your views and opinion. Polite respectful discussions and sometimes disagreements are part of the true benefit of this forum. All the best. 

[warguy]

6 hours ago, C. Roelens said:

 

 

[Dave]

bigp63 has come up a few times since December, so I thought I'd bring up some of their latest offerings.

Another thread: 

 

[Dave]

Changed the name of the thread to include the seller's eBay ID, bigp63

[BigJohn#3RD]

I am sure that there are some sharped members how have seen this grouping on at an online auction. The description is a follows: These items are in used, aged, condition. Helmet has areas with rust, no liner and the chin strap is loose. Heat stamp is not completely readable, "HS - 4 ". Both of the decorations are as is, aged with wear, the cross medallion is numbered on the edge "6300".

 

Of interest is the cross medallion is numbered on the edge "6300" which is thought to be a Distinguished Service Cross that traces to PVT Joseph M* Baker. Besides potential problems with the helmet, I have the actual medals issued to Pvt Baker and have owned the group for a number of years.

 

Attached is a link to a

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325179214699?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Daefc0bf343174fcdb37bf17ec0de359c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D134104549457%26itm%3D325179214699%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A493b2974-d069-11ec-8f7a-a6b7315cd3be|parentrq%3Aae43bad31800a9d9636a6b19fffeb7ca|iid%3A14

 

I am attaching a picture of the group on the online site, that I am not allowed to nick name, and then PVT Baker medal group which I am the current caretaker.

 

 

 

I do not know why both DSC's are numbered the same. Here is the background on JMB and the DSC that resides with me.

Following Honorable Discharged from the Corp Aug. 13, 1919;Joseph then enlisted in the regular army Oct. 14, 1919,  and served with Company F. 27th Infantry in both Siberia and the P.I..

While serving with the Army, a review of WWI Records by both the War Department and Navy decided that Baker's heroic action on June 6, 1918 should be recognized with the DSC and Navy Cross by the respective services. In the fall of 1920 the War Department published G.O. 60 awarded Baker the DSC and the Navy published orders for the Navy Cross on November 11, 1920. However, the services could not locate Baker, who was Honorably Discharged from the Army on October 2, 1920 and he then enlisted in the Marine Corp in late 1920. However, Baker did not receive his awards until September 15, 1922 while serving on the USS HURON in Chefoo China.

Bottom Line is the medal currently online is not the medal awarded to Baker. It may have been an award that floated about across the United States, and gotten lost, as the Marine Corps looked for the former PVT of 67 Company, 5th Marine, 2D Division AEF not knowing the man's whereabouts.

John

P.S. There is more to Joseph's story but I will post it in the proper forum on this website.

[manayunkman]

It’s currently over $800.

[manayunkman]

Here is a helmet they sold for over 300 no liner.

[warguy]

Here is a recent post on this ebay sellers stuff

 

 

[gearhead1968]

 

I remember looking this one over as it just sold recently. I have seen a number of these helmets in collections and for sale but I couldn't find another painted Indian for a reference that matched this one, so I passed on it. 

 

 

[Dave]

Just merged the two threads about bigp63 together. I should probably merge all of them since he has an extensive history of creating groups and outright fakes. 

[manayunkman]

The paint jobs on both helmets look to be done by the same hand.

[Dave]

and here's another thread about this seller from two years ago:
 

 

[Dave]

This is why I always screenshot the seller's name...same person...bigp63, and the group later turned up on Centurion Auctions...

[warguy]

2 hours ago, gearhead1968 said:

 

I remember looking this one over as it just sold recently. I have seen a number of these helmets in collections and for sale but I couldn't find another painted Indian for a reference that matched this one, so I passed on it. 

 

 

You wont find another Marine Composite Battalion helmet that looks like this because this is a very poor fake. All Marine Composite helmets I have seen are very similar in appearance and very distinctive, and this ain’t one of them. There are examples of Army helmets from this unit as well that are a bit different in appearance to the Marine helmets, but still dont look like this one.

[Eickhorn61]

Great thread everyone. Thanks for all the hard work !

[ADMIN]

Interesting thread.  Any idea who this guy is?  I suspect not first rodeo.  Years ago there was one similar but doing Army stuff.  Can’t find thread right now but curious if same guy.

[AirMechanic]

The lot sold for $1,825.00.

[Dave]

On 5/14/2022 at 8:34 PM, AirMechanic said:

The lot sold for $1,825.00.

 

 

 

Yep...I was just going to say "proof is in the pudding"...for a DSC group to a Marine plus a painted helmet...this should have been, what, maybe 3-4x that price? 

 

[MMcollector]

This bigp63 recently bought a M.Nọ Army Spanish Campaign medal from me and immediately returned it, he returned the last item he purchased from me as well, reason being “changed mind”. He’s wasted my time for the last time. I informed him he’s blocked from making purchases from me. His name on the eBay invoice is Norm Luebker from Castro Valley CA. If anyone wants his full address, send me a PM. He’s on my sh*t list. Hope your reading this “Norm”. 

[Dave]

I feel like that Eminem song... "Guess who's back, back again..."

 

Some nice new offerings! 

[warguy]

I find it interesting the similarities in the style of artwork on all of the painted Martine helmets this guys sells. IMO same hand and that’s just not right for cross regiments/companies. He must have quite a “studio” set up in his garage to churn these out. Sadly, they are better than many of the fakes out there and folks are going to get burned for sure, especially when these re-enter the market in the future, maybe as a single piece instead of a grouping. 

[ferris055]

Warguy, I noticed the same thing and thought that immediately.  I wonder why he labeled it as United States Army.  

[AirMechanic]

If I’m not mistaken, I believe this helmet and the last painted helmet were WWI British Mk 1 helmets and not US M1917 helmets. Is there a known history of original WWI British helmets that were issued to US troops and had painted unit insignia?

 

 

[warguy]

A lot of  Marines (and I suspect Army) AEF over there received the British helmets. Of the 17 marine painted helmets in my collection, a little over half are British. Kevin