Possible Fixed bail To Swivel bail Conversion Helmet?

[BAR44]

I am so sorry to keep posting about this helmet, but I am absolutely fascinated by it. I was very confused by this helmet at first because it is a swivel bail but the heat stamp marked on the inside of the helmet is "265B" which would mean the helmet was manufactured somewhere between July 1942 - September 1942. 

 

Swivel bales were not introduced till around mid to late 1943 so it didn't make sense to me why a helmet manufactured in 1942 would have swivel bales. I made a post about this helmet yesterday and a couple people pointed out that the helmet may have been originally manufactured as a fixed bail and at some point was converted to a swivel bail. Please let me know what your thoughts are to this it would be much appreciated. Thank you.

 

 

[elh1311]

Many fixed bales, if not most, were converted to swivels at some point. Sometimes this was done during the war but often times afterwards. 

 

It's very common to see this conversion and also helps explain why fixed bail helmets in original condition are fetching the prices they currently command. 

[BAR44]

6 minutes ago, elh1311 said:

Many fixed bales, if not most, were converted to swivels at some point. Sometimes this was done during the war but often times afterwards. 

 

It's very common to see this conversion and also helps explain why fixed bail helmets in original condition are fetching the prices they currently command. 

Yes that makes a lot of sense. I have heard that you can sometimes see the welding marks where the fixed bail would have been before it was converted. I can't seem to find any welding marks but judging by the heat stamp marked on the inside of the helmet it is more than likely my helmet was a fixed bail at some point.

[Justin]

Yes 

[BAR44]

8 minutes ago, Justin said:

Yes 

Yes to what?

[CavalryCombatant]

As a tip, you can just ask whatever questions you may have in one post instead of making two or three, it just keeps the boards less cluttered.

 

CC

[Justin]

31 minutes ago, BAR44 said:

Yes to what?

 

Yes to your question. 

[twthmoses]

Nice shell. Indeed a Mccord fix loop original. Several indicators for this.

 

All Mccord lots from 25 to 793 are original fixed loops. Give it plus/minus 10-15 lot transition range by lot 793.

 

It got dimples. All Mccord lots between 25 and 622 has dimples. Now the severity of dimples varies greatly. Sometimes it is not easy seen on the inside, but can be felt on the outside by a bulge (again, severity varies greatly). All other Mccord lots, that would be 622-1300, including fixed loops shell from 622 to 793 has a depression on the outside by the loops. This can be even more difficult to see or even feel, because of paint and texture.

 

Movable loops not attach right up to the rim, are not wartime applied. Yes, every now and then, there can be 1mm gab, or it can be misaligned, so one end is up to the rim, but not the other end. However, are we talking 2-3-4-5mm, we are talking post-1950 – at least. Fixed loop shell, with new applied movable loop, where the material is carbon steel rather than stainless steel, for either the rings or holder or both, are done just at the end of the war or right after.

 

It so happens there are no Korean US made helmets. Well not entirely true, but close. Motor Wheel got a contract in February 1952, pumping out helmets from September 1952, finishing in June 1953. Mccord got a contact in December 1952, finishing in June 1953 too (might just have been refurbishing). Point is, new helmets was produced only at the very end of the Korean war, thus 95% of all Korean M1 helmets worn by US forces was WW2 produced helmets. Sure, some form of gradual refurbishing was done in the post war years 45-50, but a large amount would be done just around 1950, by different arsenals, like example Rock Island Arsenal. Work done would be attaching new movable loops, which would be attached not up to the rim, but a little lower. Why this is so? Do not know for sure. Metalworkers would probably say, spot welding on the same spot is not a good idea, thus move it a little down. Might be so. Another point might be by moving it a little down the torque applied from the rings over the rim to the ring holders is decreased. One can noticed that rings on WW2 helmets often is bend. Either way, with only a few exceptions, this was something that was done by all M1 helmet manufactures, worldwide, from the early 50ties.

[BAR44]

1 hour ago, twthmoses said:

Nice shell. Indeed a Mccord fix loop original. Several indicators for this.

 

All Mccord lots from 25 to 793 are original fixed loops. Give it plus/minus 10-15 lot transition range by lot 793.

 

It got dimples. All Mccord lots between 25 and 622 has dimples. Now the severity of dimples varies greatly. Sometimes it is not easy seen on the inside, but can be felt on the outside by a bulge (again, severity varies greatly). All other Mccord lots, that would be 622-1300, including fixed loops shell from 622 to 793 has a depression on the outside by the loops. This can be even more difficult to see or even feel, because of paint and texture.

 

Movable loops not attach right up to the rim, are not wartime applied. Yes, every now and then, there can be 1mm gab, or it can be misaligned, so one end is up to the rim, but not the other end. However, are we talking 2-3-4-5mm, we are talking post-1950 – at least. Fixed loop shell, with new applied movable loop, where the material is carbon steel rather than stainless steel, for either the rings or holder or both, are done just at the end of the war or right after.

 

It so happens there are no Korean US made helmets. Well not entirely true, but close. Motor Wheel got a contract in February 1952, pumping out helmets from September 1952, finishing in June 1953. Mccord got a contact in December 1952, finishing in June 1953 too (might just have been refurbishing). Point is, new helmets was produced only at the very end of the Korean war, thus 95% of all Korean M1 helmets worn by US forces was WW2 produced helmets. Sure, some form of gradual refurbishing was done in the post war years 45-50, but a large amount would be done just around 1950, by different arsenals, like example Rock Island Arsenal. Work done would be attaching new movable loops, which would be attached not up to the rim, but a little lower. Why this is so? Do not know for sure. Metalworkers would probably say, spot welding on the same spot is not a good idea, thus move it a little down. Might be so. Another point might be by moving it a little down the torque applied from the rings over the rim to the ring holders is decreased. One can noticed that rings on WW2 helmets often is bend. Either way, with only a few exceptions, this was something that was done by all M1 helmet manufactures, worldwide, from the early 50ties.

 

Thats very interesting! I was aware that lots of WW2 surplus was used in Korea and even Vietnam. My helmet was used by someone who was either in a reserve or a guard unit in the 1980s which is crazy!

 

What indicators were present on my helmet besides the heat stamp that tells it was once a fixed bail?

[The Rooster]

The spot welds or dimples opposite the bails on the stainless rim. You only find those spot welds in that position on fixed Bails.

Or fixed bails that were converted to swivel.

[BAR44]

59 minutes ago, The Rooster said:

The spot welds or dimples opposite the bails on the stainless rim. You only find those spot welds in that position on fixed Bails.

Or fixed bails that were converted to swivel.

 

Yes, but I can't tell if that is the case with my helmet.

[ken88]

5 hours ago, BAR44 said:

 

Yes, but I can't tell if that is the case with my helmet.

 

Looks like it from the pictures you've uploaded.

 

Look for the 'dot' in the rim where the hinged chin strap loops are. They are commonly encountered on fixed loop M1 helmets, as well as the parachutist M2 helmet. 

 

We don't know exactly why these dimples are there, but there are two big theories out there that could explain them. One is that the dimples are there as a reinforcement, to help keep the rim in place (ballistic improvement). The other is that a tool may have been used when the loops were put into place during the production process in the factory. 

The fact that later, hinged loop M1 helmets lack the dimples, seems to support the second theory in which the tool was used to hold the loops in place in the factory, but the case remains far from closed, since at that point the M1 helmet was only just being produced and still in development. All sorts of testing needed to be done still so there's no definitive answer to why the dimples are there.

 

 

[twthmoses]

5 hours ago, ken88 said:

 

Looks like it from the pictures you've uploaded.

 

Look for the 'dot' in the rim where the hinged chin strap loops are. They are commonly encountered on fixed loop M1 helmets, as well as the parachutist M2 helmet. 

 

We don't know exactly why these dimples are there, but there are two big theories out there that could explain them. One is that the dimples are there as a reinforcement, to help keep the rim in place (ballistic improvement). The other is that a tool may have been used when the loops were put into place during the production process in the factory. 

The fact that later, hinged loop M1 helmets lack the dimples, seems to support the second theory in which the tool was used to hold the loops in place in the factory, but the case remains far from closed, since at that point the M1 helmet was only just being produced and still in development. All sorts of testing needed to be done still so there's no definitive answer to why the dimples are there.

 

 

 

As said all Mccord fixed loop shells, lot 25-622 have dimples. Fixed loops from 622-793 does not, as movable loops from 793-1300. They have an outside depression.

 

Dimples are from the tool used to hold the shell in place, when spanking (beating) the rim flat, after the rim has been put on the shell and the two rim ends have been spot-welded to the shell. After lot 622 Mccord change the way the shell was held in place during this procedure. The new procedure makes a slight depression on the outside, rather than the dimples on the inside and bulge on the outside. Pretty sure Mccord got that from Schlueter, as they have been doing it this way since they began producing shells.

 

A Mccord lot 732C fixed loop shell. No dimple, but a depression on the outside. Nothing on the inside. As said can be very hard to see or even feel, because of paint and texture. Sometimes you can see a slight bend inward on the inside.

 

 

A Mccord lot 324D fixed loop shell. Dimples of “good quality”. Easy seen on both inside and outside.

 

[BAR44]

6 hours ago, twthmoses said:

 

As said all Mccord fixed loop shells, lot 25-622 have dimples. Fixed loops from 622-793 does not, as movable loops from 793-1300. They have an outside depression.

 

Dimples are from the tool used to hold the shell in place, when spanking (beating) the rim flat, after the rim has been put on the shell and the two rim ends have been spot-welded to the shell. After lot 622 Mccord change the way the shell was held in place during this procedure. The new procedure makes a slight depression on the outside, rather than the dimples on the inside and bulge on the outside. Pretty sure Mccord got that from Schlueter, as they have been doing it this way since they began producing shells.

 

A Mccord lot 732C fixed loop shell. No dimple, but a depression on the outside. Nothing on the inside. As said can be very hard to see or even feel, because of paint and texture. Sometimes you can see a slight bend inward on the inside.

 

 

A Mccord lot 324D fixed loop shell. Dimples of “good quality”. Easy seen on both inside and outside.

 

 

So upon futher looking it does appear that my helmet does have dimples on the rim.