Aurel Posted October 29, 2021 Share #1 Posted October 29, 2021 Hello I'm looking for help to find the different Specification numbers for the Overcoats. I've some overcoats in my collection and I would like to understand the difference. (in the eyes of the QMC) Best regard Aurélien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrenchRat Posted November 1, 2021 Share #2 Posted November 1, 2021 Aurel, Looking only for WWI era coats or earlier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Victory Museum Posted November 1, 2021 Share #3 Posted November 1, 2021 Bonjour, Aurel. Although there was one earlier olive drab overcoat specification that defined a particular article of clothing from 1905 through 1907, those coats that saw service with the AEF can be broken down into three visual categories which I shall list below. One final overcoat was produced by at least one manufacturer late in the war; however, at the end of the Great War its contract was cancelled, and it is unlikely any of them actually made it to Europe. The changes within any particular group usually had to do with the weight of the wool being used; however, within the first group the buttons went from being rimless to rimmed. Without getting bogged down with subtle differences (e.g. mercerized cotton thread vs silk thread), it's best just to group the coats using a quick visual method of identifying them absent an intact maker's tag showing a spec. # which is usually found on the reverse of the lining of the "skirt". The cuffs are the quickest means to categorize the overcoats. I have included specification numbers which came from the work of USMF Jprostak. It is unlikely that the forum's software will preserve the formatting, so you'll have to copy it and insert leading or following spaces to enhance its legibility. The information in each row represents (1) the specification number, (2) the date issued, (3) the item (4) the prior specification number of the item being replaced, (5) the date of that specification's issuance. 880 1907-Jun-24 OD Overcoat Repl. Spec 762 1905-Jul-14 1051 1909-Nov-03 OD Overcoat Repl. Spec 880 1907-Jun-24 1159 1912-Jul-26 OD Overcoat Repl. Spec 1051 1909-Nov-03 1176 1913-Apr-10 OD Overcoat Repl. Spec 1159 1912-Jul-26 1267 1917-Aug-27 OD Overcoat Repl. Spec 1176 1913-Apr-10 1284 1917-Dec-04 OD Overcoat Repl. Spec 1267 1917-Aug-27 1355 1918-Aug-28 OD Overcoat Repl. Spec 1284 1917-Dec-04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Victory Museum Posted November 1, 2021 Share #4 Posted November 1, 2021 Anyway, from spec. 880 through spec. 1159, these coats have cuffs that are folded back. I have seen a few with discharge chevrons indicating continued use throughout the Great War, but whether they were used stateside only or actually went overseas with the AEF I cannot say with any certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Victory Museum Posted November 1, 2021 Share #5 Posted November 1, 2021 Overcoats spec. 1176 and spec. 1267 can be readily identified by having an ornamental tab sewn at the end of the sleeve in lieu of an actual cuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Victory Museum Posted November 1, 2021 Share #6 Posted November 1, 2021 Overcoat spec. 1284 eliminated the ornamentation and has plain sleeves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Victory Museum Posted November 1, 2021 Share #7 Posted November 1, 2021 The coats went from full length to shorter overcoats, as well as fully lined to being partially lined; from having detachable hoods, to not having hoods. Most changes within a "group" were due to changes in the weight of the wool being used. One final word, although overcoat spec. 1355 was defined in Aug-1918, it did not actually replace spec. 1284, coats conforming to spec 1284 continued to be made after well after Aug. 1918, as I have seen many spec. labels dated through Oct. The only two coats conforming to spec 1355 that I have ever seen (one of which I own) were made by the same manufacturer. Contracts were cancelled at war's end, making this coat quite scarce. I've never observed one in period photographs; they likely never went to Europe. This coat has pocket flaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Posted November 28, 2021 Author Share #8 Posted November 28, 2021 Hello Thanks a lot for your help. I have several Overcoats with variants but I could not clearly identify the specification. I noticed on my model 1176 that the tab is sewn at the edge of the sleeve, while on the model 1267, the tab is sewn a few inches from the edge And the $1million question .... Where to classify this model ?! 😄 Best regards Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US Victory Museum Posted December 1, 2021 Share #9 Posted December 1, 2021 Bonjour, Aurel. "And the $1million question .... Where to classify this model" Ah, yes, the overcoat with the Mackinaw style collar. This coat does not conform to any US military specification. Both USMF World War 1 Nerd and I went around and around discussing this style of unlined coat. Without definitive proof, we came to a consensus that these were likely sourced from France. One particular coat which was well photographed demonstrated an ink stamp indicating its size. The numerical font was similar to that used on a known French manufactured item (a hat). https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/259629-non-spec-overcoat-w-shawl-mackinaw-collar/ Unfortunately, the link above got a little "muddy" when it started by discussing this type of overcoat, and then dragged regular Mackinaws, both military and personal purchased, into the same discussion. They are distinctly separate items. Your attached photograph shows that this type of overcoat has external hung pockets; whereas, all the US produced olive drab overcoats from Spec. 762 (Jul. 14th, 1905) ... Spec. 1355 (Aug. 08th, 1918) have internally hung pockets. Both it and the spec. 1355 have pocket flaps in common. As I have indicated, I have a spec. 1355 overcoat in my collection; I spent several years looking for it. The only other one that I have ever seen was sold by AGM (Advance Guard Militaria). The overcoat was introduced on the same date as spec. 1356, 1918-Aug-08, OD Wool Serv. Coat which we collectors colloquially call the "Pershing coat" A few days later the woolen straight leg trousers was also defined. Both the Pershing coat and trousers appear from time to time, but the winter coat, which had its contract cancelled at the end of the war, is as rare as a hen's tooth. Your friend and fellow collector, Mike P.S. I enjoy looking at photos from your collection. You have an advanced collection, and mannequins on which to craft beautiful presentations. Please post more as time permits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Posted December 4, 2021 Author Share #10 Posted December 4, 2021 Thanks Mike What are the differences on the Overcoat spec 1355 ? I've also a M1918 wool service coat Spec 1356 of Hart Schaffner. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Posted December 4, 2021 Author Share #11 Posted December 4, 2021 Mike, I observed this detail on my Overcoats On Spec 1176, the tab is sewn close to the edge , and on the Spe 1267, the tab is sewn a few inches from the edge and a seam below ( no seam on the 1176 ) Can you check this detail on your Overcoat spec. 1176 and spec. 1267 ? Friendly Aurelien spec. 1176 Spe 1267 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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