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Help with Naval Uniform ID-Is it a Late 1890s Midshipmen (First Class, Ensign)?


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Hello, 

 

I recently purchased a naval uniform. It was advertised as a SAW midshipmen's uniform. Any assistance in identifying the uniform, date of manufacture and answers to my questions would be appreciated.

 

Is this a naval academy uniform? 

 

I also included my SAW naval officer's belt rig in with the photos. 

 

Is the belt rig appropriate for the individual that wore this uniform, i.e., was it issued to them?

 

What would be the appropriate head gear for this uniform? A picture would be helpful.

 

The manufacturer of the buttons on the coat is Jacob Reed and Sons Phila

 

 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Sorry for not seeing the initial post until just now. Yes, this is a midshipman's uniform. As Beast asked, there's probably a label in the pocket, and they are invariably named, so you can pin down exactly when it was worn.


As far as the belt rig, they did wear the sword belt. However, the pistol holder and ammo pouch were not worn on this belt or in this uniform. 

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Dave and Beast thanks for your comment and information.

 

Yes. there is label inside the pocket. I didn't know it was there. Maker is Jacob Reed's Sons Philadelphia PA. I believe the name is A. B. Carley. Register A41JJ (?)

 

Eric

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I can't find a Carley in the register of graduates, but there is an Albert Bruce Corby, who graduated with the class of 1928. Can you post a photo of it? 

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Hello Dave,

 

I have attached a picture of the name. It does look like A. B. Corby. The second letter does look like an "a" but it certainly could be an "o" 

 

I was comparing Beast's uniform to mine. His does not have the eagle anchor emblem on the arm like mine. Do you know why the eagle anchor emblem the arm of my jacket. His has three stripes on the sleeve. Mine only has one. What do they mean? 

 

Another couple of questions I have. Do you know what hat was worn with this uniform? I'd like to complete it in the future.

 

In regards to the eagle belt with the Colt DA holster and cartridge box. Was this belt only worn by officers or did non-officers also wear it. I have seen pictures of non-officers wearing belts with the holster and cartridge box. I could not tell if the belt plate was the eagle and anchor however.

 

Thanks for doing the research.

 

Eric

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The appropriate hat worn with this would be the standard officer's visor cover from the time period, but with the midshipman anchor on it. Google images isn't being very helpful at the moment, as I was looking for a photo to post to show you. I have some Lucky Bags from this time period, but they are packed away at the moment, otherwise I'd just snap a photo from there. 

 

As far as the differences in rank, midshipmen wore different insignia based on their varied responsibilities at the Academy. The wearing of this particular insignia (the anchor and eagle) has changed a bit over time - we had this discussion on here a few years back, but I can't find the insignia chart that was used. Regardless, it shows their rank differences as first class midshipmen (all of the other year midshipmen wear diagonal stripes; only the seniors - or first class - wear horizontal stripes). 

 

As far as the belt, since they would not wear firearms at the Academy, particularly in their formal/parade uniform, they'd just wear the belt with the sword, and that's all. I'm not familiar enough with older officer rigs to say if the sword belt would be worn with the holster and cartridge box - I'd like to dig up photos of the Navy officers at Vera Cruz and figure out what they were wearing, because I don't know (you have found the limits of my knowledge on these!) 😄

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I was probably off on the Vera Cruz suggestion, as that was me brainstorming and thinking that what was used there might have been similar to this, as it was within 10 years of this uniform being worn. 

 

That said, I had a great time looking through photos on the NHHC website of naval officers in Vera Cruz. Some really interesting stuff: first off, the leather belt wasn't worn at all; they appear to only wear webbing, in both uniforms. Also, and probably more interesting, is the naval officer wearing a Marine corporal's uniform! Now if that wouldn't blow people's minds! 

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6 hours ago, Dave said:

I was probably off on the Vera Cruz suggestion, as that was me brainstorming and thinking that what was used there might have been similar to this, as it was within 10 years of this uniform being worn. 

 

That said, I had a great time looking through photos on the NHHC website of naval officers in Vera Cruz. Some really interesting stuff: first off, the leather belt wasn't worn at all; they appear to only wear webbing, in both uniforms. Also, and probably more interesting, is the naval officer wearing a Marine corporal's uniform! Now if that wouldn't blow people's minds! 

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Why??? I was expecting to see a midshipman’s insignia on his cap, thinking it was a cadet doing one of their active duty cruises.  But this image is pretty wild! Thanks Dave for posting it.

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Hello Dave,

 

I appreciate all your information. 

 

I forgot to attached the picture of the uniform tag in my last post. I attached it now. I think it looks like A.B. Corby

 

If anyone has a photo for the correct cap for my uniform that would be helpful. 

 

Eric

 

 

AB Corby.jpg

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30 minutes ago, BEAST said:

Why??? I was expecting to see a midshipman’s insignia on his cap, thinking it was a cadet doing one of their active duty cruises.  But this image is pretty wild! Thanks Dave for posting it.

 

Random trivia: I learned this morning from digging through the photos was that there was an insufficient amount of "combat" uniforms when they made the landings at Vera Cruz, so some of the officers, rather than fighting in their white uniform (could you imagine??) borrowed Marine uniforms and wore them. Obviously, this officer was planning on giving his back, as he left the Corporal rank on it! (In that situation, I probably would have at least removed the rank and re-sewn it, but not everyone is me...) 

This definitely fits into "learning something new every day"!

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As far as the belt used with the leather .38 holster and pouch (1889 pattern I recall) they were a plain leather belt with an open square frame brass buckle. I recall it was a friction buckle, but don't quote me on that yet! I have some reference material and a few photos - deeply buried at the moment. 

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Hello CAC1901,

 

It has been difficult for me to find the correct belt (even examples) for the M1889 Naval cartridge box and 38 DA holster. I have seen folks selling them on the officer's eagle plate belt. I didn't think this was a correct historical representation.  Other branches of the military had both leather dress belts and field belts. I see these different belts for sale all the time. All I ever see for sale for the navy are the leather naval officer's gilded eagle belt plate belt (lots of these)?? I know that in the mid 1890s the blue mills belt (for the Lee rifle) was common. 

 

Eric

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I finally found my 1928 Lucky Bag yearbook. Here are some photos of the uniforms in wear, as well as the entry for the original owner. 

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These pictures are very cool Dave, especially the picture of Albert. It is so nice to have a picture of the original owner of my uniform. It looks like he may be wearing the uniform that I have in that picture.

 

I now have examples of the proper head gear and I can start looking for a cap to complete the uniform. 

 

Thanks for taking the time to find that Lucky Bag Yearbook and posting these pictures. Never thought I would have a photo of the original owner of my uniform. 

 

Eric

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So I figured I'd go and do a little digging to see what I could find about him. It appears he was "retired" (though I believe without pay) as a LTJG, and remained on the retired rolls for quite some time (through WW2). However, he was never called back to active service. 

 

Interestingly, he returned back to his home in New York and became a farmer. In the 1940 census, he's listed with his wife and four kids, but no job is listed. I thought that was odd, and I thought it was also odd that there was a second 1940 census listing for him. Turns out that he spent at least 1940 as a patient at Saint Elizabeth's Hospital in Washington, DC. So sadly, at some point, he suffered from psychological disease to the point where he had to be sent from NY to DC for inpatient care. It appears he remained married to the same woman the entire time, and passed away in Florida at the age of 65 (it was in February...sounds like your "typical" New York snowbird!) 

The house they lived in after he returned from Saint Elizabeth's is still standing; it's a cute house. I haven't been able to find a job listing for him, so I don't know what he did for an occupation aside from being a farmer. 

Interesting, if not a bit sad, story!

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Wow Dave that was fast. It took me a year to dig information on my great great grandfather. Well. Albert didn't do much with his military career. Makes me believe he may have been suffering psychological issues before being admitted to the hospital. Could be why he wasn't called back to duty during WW2. Maybe he couldn't hold a job. Yes it is somewhat of a sad story!

 

Thanks for the additional information I appreciate. I will keep it with the uniform. 

 

Eric

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