British Enfield WW1 Models in US Service?

[Primoris Scio]

I am looking at potentially buying a Enfield SMLE circa WW1, however, I am not sure which make is the same type that was issued to the 27th Division when they were assigned to the British 2nd Army in Belgium, or with the 4th Army in France in 1918. 

 

Can anyone help identify which SMLE version I should be searching for, is it as simple as looking for a 1918 model?

[warroom1]

mk 1 n0 3 my uncle in in 105 rgt k co 27th ny

[Primoris Scio]

Awesome thanks warroom1!  

 

This is where I got confused because I have seen both Mk I & Mk III listed in various publishings, does it matter?

 

The website for the 27th Div had this information also, they say it was a Short Lee-Enfield Mark III:

http://www.oryansroughnecks.org/weapons.html

 

"The 27th Division arrived in France equipped with the US Rifle, .30 Cal. Model 1917. It was probably with some trepidation that the men, who had trained and become familiar with this weapon, turned them in* upon being assigned to serve with the British Army. They need not have worried. The replacement was one of the finest military bolt action rifles ever produced, the British service rifle, The Short Lee-Enfield Mark III*. The Mark III was accepted into service with the British Army on January 26, 1907. The Mark III*, introduced in January 1916 was the same rifle with minor design changes intended to speed and simplify wartime production."

 

Since I am a novice with antique firearms is there anything specific that I should know about this weapon (bayonet mount, sling type, etc.) to confirm that I am dealing with an original?  There is a large gun show this weekend near me, and I want to try to find one there.

 

 

[warroom1]

i would contact members on there web site they jnow what there are doing they cover most of what you need

[M1Garandy]

Enfields were rebuilt many times over. You need to figure out what you are after. Do you just want an No 1 MkIII or MkIII* Enfield that has a WWI dated receiver, or do you want an original WWI rifle with the correct features? Things like volley sights, early type rear sights, magazine cutoffs etc. 

 

A representative example with a WWI date ought not to be too hard to find, a correct example will be much harder to find, and more expensive. 

 

You also may want to research which manufacturer you want. At various times, the No 1 was made by Birmingham Small Arms (BSA), RSAF Enfield, Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI India), Lithgow in Australia and several others. I've also seen Khyber pass copies out there that are good wall hangers, but not safe to fire. 

 

Another thing to note, at various points Enfield parts were numbered. In addition to the receiver S/N, the barrel, bolt, magazine, nosecap, rear sight leaf and forend were numbered. When originally numbered, all those parts would match each other and the rifle S/N. 

 

The above just scratches the surface. This might be a good investment before you go shopping: Good Enfield book

 

[M1Garandy]

Oh, another thing, there were LOTS of No 1 Enfield drill purpose rifles imported in the late 90's-early 2000's. 

 

Many of them had red and white bands painted around the stock to warn people what they were, but many were refinished to remove the pained bands. If you want a shooter, not a wall hanger, avoid anything that has parts stamped "DP" for drill purpose. 

 

You might check with someone like Brian Dick at BDLLTD and see if he has what you are after, he's the number one Enfield guy in the US. He's in the Carolinas and has a website. 

[warroom1]

here is for you to look at the 27th with the smle

images - Shortcut.lnk

[mikie]

46 minutes ago, M1Garandy said:

Oh, another thing, there were LOTS of No 1 Enfield drill purpose rifles imported in the late 90's-early 2000's. 

 

Many of them had red and white bands painted around the stock to warn people what they were, but many were refinished to remove the pained bands. If you want a shooter, not a wall hanger, avoid anything that has parts stamped "DP" for drill purpose. 

 

You might check with someone like Brian Dick at BDLLTD and see if he has what you are after, he's the number one Enfield guy in the US. He's in the Carolinas and has a website. 

Good advice about the DP stamp.  A few years ago I was clueless and looking for parts for an Enfield revolver.  One dealer had DP stamped parts that they suggested was a good thing. I almost bought several parts I needed, but a little more homework revealed what it really meant.  My gun isn't a wall hanger, but it is a holster filler. So it really wouldn't have made a big difference except it would have annoyed me no end.   Thanks for spreading the word.  

Mikie

[Primoris Scio]

Thank you M1Garandy that is very helpful information.  I was reviewing rifles online and it occured to me that a 100 year old weapon is unlikely to have its original sling remain intact.  From what I understand a British leather or web sling was used.  After a quick scan it seems that WW2 era slings are the farthest back it may realistically go, my question is:

 

If an Enfield were missing the original sling, does it matter if it is replaced with a vintage or modern one?

[M1Garandy]

WWI Enfield slings are out there, they are just harder to find and more expensive. 

 

As for the "does it matter" question, that is entirely up to you. An Enfield sling is an Enfield sling, be it WWI, WWII, an SLR sling (looks the same but synthetic vs. canvas) or a reproduction. 

 

It is all about what you are after, what you can afford, etc. I can tell you that in my opinion, the repro Enfield web slings I have handled have not impressed me and feel to be of a much cheaper build quality. 

 

If you want a bayonet too, that's a whole other deal as well. 

[Primoris Scio]

I like the WW2 slings as there are some decently used versions available that would go well with it, and I will not use any repros for this collection, your opinion helps to reinforce that.  Ironically I was looking at various bayonets, in order to complete the rifle I would need to get one, it would not feel correct without; fortunately I do have some experience with bayonets, daggers, etc.

 

Your input M1 has been most helpful, thank  you. 

 

 

[M1Garandy]

You are quite welcome.

 

Coincidentally, I ended up with a 1918 made Sanderson SMLE bayonet in a WWI scabbard yesterday on a fluke for a song.  It is Canadian marked and will be going to a friend that has been looking for one for his SMLE.

 

Watch out, there are repro Enfield bayonets, scabbards and possibly frogs out there too.

 

A couple of other thing to watch out for: The "Ishy screw" often found on Enfield wood from India. Used to reinforce the forend, but ugly IMO. The other more important thing is that there are SMLE's out there that were converted to fire 410 bore shotshells. The barrels will no longer have rifling, and will be useless as anything but a single shot shotgun.

[solcarlus]

Bonjour.

 

[solcarlus]

[Primoris Scio]

Excellent photos to add to the topic solcarlus!  Do you know which unit these soldiers are with, or where they were at the time?

[solcarlus]

Bonjour.

 

I found this picture on the internet. It mentioned the 78th Inf. Div. I don't know the place. This division perfected its training with British troops.

 

 

J’ai trouvé cette photo sur internet. Elle mentionnait la 78th Inf. Div. Je le connais pas le lieu. Cette division a perfectionné son instruction auprès des troupes britanniques.

[Linedoggie]

On 10/22/2021 at 12:41 PM, Primoris Scio said:

Awesome thanks warroom1!  

 

This is where I got confused because I have seen both Mk I & Mk III listed in various publishings, does it matter?

 

The website for the 27th Div had this information also, they say it was a Short Lee-Enfield Mark III:

http://www.oryansroughnecks.org/weapons.html

 

 

 

No 1 MK III   the * signified removal of the magazine cutoff and volley sights, Officially done in 1916 but you may find some BSA made from 1915 with those done already

[The Rooster]

I have an smle Mk3 It has a scrubbed wrist band that said England and a date. I pulled the wood off and the barrel has several different dates on it, the oldest being 1907,

Has old markings crossed off and has been re serial numbered and all the numbers across the whole gun from bolt to nose cap all match and point to a refurbishing in  I believe 1940 in India. The numbers match those from India and its was restamped an the wrist band, FR 40.

 

So I believe mine started out in England and wound up being refurbished in India.

Has the magazine cut off still on it.

It took some reading on the net but I found the numbers match those coming out of india in that time frame.

If you pull the wood off, you may find all kinds of markings on the barrel?

Mine has many. All hidden under the wood.

[Story]

I see no indications of the 27th's SMLEs having magazine cut offs. 

 

 

 

Those modified to have them have a distinctively relieved stock, even if the cut off has been removed.