442nd RCT DUI Question

[Tonomachi]

I have kept a number of photographs of what I think are genuine 442nd RCT DUIs (see photos of five variants).  The first is unmarked, the second and third are sterling marked but different rear fixings and the fourth is screw back.  As 442nd RCT DUIs command high prices they have been faked.  So I'm not 100% sure these are all genuine.  What does everybody else think.  The other question I have has to do with a possible error 442nd RCT DUI next to a genuine fifth variant 442nd RCT DUI made in Italy for comparison.   As you can see the colors are opposite from the norm with the blue enamel at the top instead of red.  My question is could this be a wartime error piece or an outright fake?  Does anyone know of any other variants out there?

 

 

 

 

[Allan H.]

You have shared some very desirable crests with the photos you have posted. It looks to me like all of the ones shared are original, though I would really rather see the screw back piece back side without the nut in place. The reversed color DUI is a known variant. The most common of the "faked" 442nd crest have been the ones made in Italy by the original manufacturers off of their original dies. As I recall, guys like Col. Greene and Jay Massaro had them remade while they were stationed in Europe in the 1960's and 70's, so there is a fair amount of age to them. You can be rather confident that the sterling examples are indeed wartime.

 

Allan

[John4022]

I agree with Allan on the screw post example. Here's two examples that I own from two different 442nd vets, ones US made and one Italian. 

[Tonomachi]

Thanks for everyone's input and your photos.  I don't own the screw back variant so I can't provide any further photographs.  I was wondering if anyone has ever come across the reverse color variant crest in any veteran groupings?  I wonder if it was ever worn as you can't really tell the color difference from something so small on period back and white photographs.  I wonder if there was any meaning for the reverse colors or if the manufacture simply got the colors reversed by mistake and the troopers didn't notice the difference and wore them on their uniforms?

 

 

[Tonomachi]

Here is a picture of the Allan H. mentioned Italian fake 442nd RCT DUI.  I've also attached a photograph of a possible theater made 442nd RCT DUI that someone else posted on the forum in the past which I kept a photograph of.  What does everyone think about this piece which looks like it has that European style pin back assembly?  This would be a sixth variant crest if the mentioned screw back piece is legitimate.

 

 

 

 

[Allan H.]

I believe that the bright gold "European pin" DUI to be a fake. I like the maker marked example just fine, but remember that Italian made DUIs were remade post war.

 

As for the reversed colors DUI, I cannot say that I have ever seen an attributed example, but around 35 years ago, I acquired a 4 pocket blouse patched to a 442nd soldier that had come out of a costume closet at Arkansas State University. The blouse was tailored down from a fairly small blouse and had been worn quite a bit. In one of the pockets was an o/seas cap with no piping, but it had a single reversed color, 442nd DUI pinned to it.

 

At the time, I just figured that it had simply been donated to the drama department. Later I found out that Arkansas State had once been associated with one of the Japanese Relocation Camps in Arkansas. Perhaps that is how a 442nd blouse ended up there? Either way, I got rid of the blouse decades ago, but I remember the reversed color DUI clearly.

 

Allan

[John4022]

Thank you Allan for the great reply! I assume there's no way of distinguishing the post war Italian made DUI's? Or is the maker marked variation Tonomachi posted in #5 the Post War example. 

[Tonomachi]

4 hours ago, Allan H. said:

I believe that the bright gold "European pin" DUI to be a fake. I like the maker marked example just fine, but remember that Italian made DUIs were remade post war.

 

As for the reversed colors DUI, I cannot say that I have ever seen an attributed example, but around 35 years ago, I acquired a 4 pocket blouse patched to a 442nd soldier that had come out of a costume closet at Arkansas State University. The blouse was tailored down from a fairly small blouse and had been worn quite a bit. In one of the pockets was an o/seas cap with no piping, but it had a single reversed color, 442nd DUI pinned to it.

 

At the time, I just figured that it had simply been donated to the drama department. Later I found out that Arkansas State had once been associated with one of the Japanese Relocation Camps in Arkansas. Perhaps that is how a 442nd blouse ended up there? Either way, I got rid of the blouse decades ago, but I remember the reversed color DUI clearly.

 

Allan

Thanks for the follow up information.  

[VMI88]

Quote

Thank you Allan for the great reply! I assume there's no way of distinguishing the post war Italian made DUI's? Or is the maker marked variation Tonomachi posted in #5 the Post War example. 

Just an observation, but the Italian-marked insignia in posts 1 & 3 has a simple stamped hook catch that I've seen on other Italian insignia.  The one in post 5 has a US-style ball catch.  Could that be the difference between original and post-war?

[Allan H.]

1 hour ago, VMI88 said:

Just an observation, but the Italian-marked insignia in posts 1 & 3 has a simple stamped hook catch that I've seen on other Italian insignia.  The one in post 5 has a US-style ball catch.  Could that be the difference between original and post-war?

Yes they could!

 

Allan

[irish]

I was looking though an old Asmic Trading post today July-September 1997… An article written by Jay Massaro titled the “ Great Italian Insignia Hunt”appears in this issue…. The article recalls Jay Massaro’s and Jim Greene’s trip to the old Italian DI makers… I does not appear from the article authored by Jay that they had any Di’s made up on that trip… they did get to look at some old manufacturers sample boards..

[dmsusuki]

Hello Tonodachi,

Was reading your threads on the 44nd distinctive insignia.  You have done much research and presented new information.  The di with the European [German] pin back is a fantasy piece.  I don't believe the Germans created clear super glue or epoxy yet.  The di with the Italian maker mark was not created to be a fake in terms of stealing money from good collectors.  The rumor I was told from the islands was that the actual dies were brought back from Florence and kept in the islands.  In the 1990's or there abouts, there was a run of di's made and distributed to the veterans who had lost there’s over time or never bought any due to the lack of availability.  The “first run” used aged metal [brown patina] with the same back with the maker mark.  The front resembled the Italian made di.  The pin used was a typical domestic pin but it was not hot soldered and it detached easily.  Your example looks like a cross of the first style di with a copy of the copy Italian maker mark. 

Thank you for your hard work.  After my semester is completed, I will attempt to post some original examples

Respectively,

dmsusuki

[Tonomachi]

2 hours ago, dmsusuki said:

Hello Tonodachi,

Was reading your threads on the 44nd distinctive insignia.  You have done much research and presented new information.  The di with the European [German] pin back is a fantasy piece.  I don't believe the Germans created clear super glue or epoxy yet.  The di with the Italian maker mark was not created to be a fake in terms of stealing money from good collectors.  The rumor I was told from the islands was that the actual dies were brought back from Florence and kept in the islands.  In the 1990's or there abouts, there was a run of di's made and distributed to the veterans who had lost there’s over time or never bought any due to the lack of availability.  The “first run” used aged metal [brown patina] with the same back with the maker mark.  The front resembled the Italian made di.  The pin used was a typical domestic pin but it was not hot soldered and it detached easily.  Your example looks like a cross of the first style di with a copy of the copy Italian maker mark. 

Thank you for your hard work.  After my semester is completed, I will attempt to post some original examples

Respectively,

dmsusuki

Thanks for sharing this information.

[Ilin1979]

What do you guys think on this example?

Looks like the unmarked one but I see one difference, small loops above "go for broke" are red instead of blue.

[Tonomachi]

On 10/24/2023 at 6:16 PM, Ilin1979 said:

What do you guys think on this example?

Looks like the unmarked one but I see one difference, small loops above "go for broke" are red instead of blue.

It looks genuine to me despite the use of red enamel instead of blue within the first folds of the ribbon above the motto.  You have a US made varaint of sorts that most people would not have notice.  During the manufacture process with most enamel jewelry colored powdered glass is sprinkled within these voids then sort of baked to melt then polished to remove excess glass.  The two fold voids you are speaking of are so small that maybe the worker got lazy or simply made the mistake of not adding the blue powder thinking it was supposed to be red powder.  Another possibility is that the worker added blue powder which got mixed with the red powder which overpowered the blue color after firing.  Thanks for sharing this.

[Ilin1979]

16 minutes ago, Tonomachi said:

It looks genuine to me despite the use of red enamel instead of blue within the first folds of the ribbon above the motto.  You have a US made varaint of sorts that most people would not have notice.  During the manufacture process with most enamel jewelry colored powdered glass is sprinkled within these voids then sort of baked to melt then polished to remove excess glass.  The two fold voids you are speaking of are so small that maybe the worker got lazy or simply made the mistake of not adding the blue powder thinking it was supposed to be red powder.  Another possibility is that the worker added blue powder which got mixed with the red powder which overpowered the blue color after firing.  Thanks for sharing this.

Thank you.