WW1 or WW2 ssi 27th ID?

[Primoris Scio]

Can anyone confirm if these types of patches are WW1 or WW2 era?  I have seen several images of the small wool borders before, and sewn on WW1 tunics, would like to better understand it.

[Primoris Scio]

I found this sample photo from oryansroughnecks.org:

http://www.oryansroughnecks.org/badges_insignia2.html

 

I think the two patches in my first post resemble the version in the bottom corner, but there is no reverse image to compare.

[mortaydc60]

Think it is more like 1930's era not WW1 era

[Primoris Scio]

1 hour ago, mortaydc60 said:

Think it is more like 1930's era not WW1 era

How can you tell? 

 

My concern is the stiching looks better than most of the WW1 patches that I have seen.  Both of the patches are listed on two separate militaria sites as being from WW1, and unfortunately the website for the sample image in the second post does not say if all of those patches are from that era.

[vzemke]

The fact is this unit existed as a significant part of the New York National Guard for all of the 1920s and 30s. So tons of interwar variations exist. However, the standard naming conventions for many dealers and collectors are purely binary, either WWI or WWII with no room in between. 
 

These look like classic late 1930s (or even very early 1940s) embroidered on wool type patches. 

[warroom1]

ww2  for the patch you posted for help snow on back is ww2 manufacted

[Primoris Scio]

Appreciate the feedback, I have a Liberty Loan version which is the only one I am confident in.  If anyone has one of the other 27th Div. patches that are WW1 authentic please feel free to post them for reference.

 

 

 

 

[warroom1]

most ww1 patches were made very late war some were made buy Nuns or home made thet used the wrappings from the leggings for a base the imsignia on helmets were pained by the troops on the way home

[vzemke]

The “cut off” point for WWI patches has always been a bit squishy.  Most were authorized at the very end of the war, and the vast majority were produced after the armistice.  I’d even submit that many were applied to uniforms after the soldier was discharged (certainly not all however). 
 

I think it gets even squishy-er with the units that continued to exist (esp National Guard divisions and some Regular Army divisions).  These units had very active veterans associations, conventions, parades, etc (all opportunities to buy and apply a unit patch), as well as “current” soldiers needing patches.  I’ve also seen 27th Div and II Corps Liberty Loan patches worn on interwar (i.e. open collar) uniforms.  
 

I’ve heard there is a Facebook group dedicated to 27th Division collectors, probably a good place to look. I’d try to find as many period portraits as possible to get an idea of what was worn 1918-19 and what was worn 1920 and beyond. I’d imagine there is a decent amount of material for a unit like the 27th. 

[Primoris Scio]

Thank you vzemke that is helpful!

[kiaiokalewa]

Totally agree with Mort and Vance targeting this particular style of 27th to the latter half of the interwar period.  I have uniforms in the collection (not 27th related) that have carry-overs from the AEF (WWI era patched uniforms) that had their hardware converted to gilt (post 1924) to met the uniform regulations of the times and also have a few uniforms (post 1926) transitioning their standing collars into the lapel.  

 

The 27th M.P. Company uniform shown was intentionally made as a lapel coat and not a conversion of an old standing collar tunic of WWI vintage.  It's quite possible that circa. of this style of 27th Division patch could have surfaced in the late 1920's too but without photographic evidence of this its pure speculation at this point...

 

 

[militariaone]

Greetings,

 

  Had an opportunity to image these two WWI 27th Division Patches, variations, can't show you their rear sides as they are still on uniforms. 🙄

 

Njoy,

 

V/r Lance