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WW 1 & WW 2 Marine - medals and precedence, including foreign medals


hiram392
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Meet the gentleman I am researching.  James Aloysius “Red” Ducey.  Passed in 1952.  Pictured in dress uniform and as a military police chief in Guam.F5070C95-1BDE-4F19-9AE2-14BF47853209.jpeg.c939b3c33898fd9b7038efde7bf555e8.jpeg5FA4809A-B48F-4FD0-8F4A-59376D5BAB96.jpeg.b3456f6f2af8e395463fee815cc9ac49.jpeg

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FriarChuck, here are close ups of ribbons and attachments that are in old display case.  Looks like multiple sets, here.  Notice that the Germany Occupation ribbons included have wavy blue stripes.  This was done on early versions to represent the Rhine River.  Was changed to straight because they couldn’t easily create it on large scale.3636952C-BADD-45C9-8B93-B56F8B062172.jpeg.e8ce19c2bafe8455868e4b6b6524d684.jpeg69E14423-A301-441C-A3F4-CC5F6BABFD04.jpeg.a8a4dd0b96f44a620eab25ea1cd78843.jpeg9599FD6C-7869-4997-B9BC-C7F34D9ACA69.jpeg.21645d485800152472c7f80c5104eb59.jpeg779FF549-95E8-4695-83A5-6900B9F4F212.jpeg.12cd9adaf4cf5594bdf74aaa0538e88d.jpegAE37E1F0-C9B1-4AB6-8A07-645D5DD6C181.jpeg.126ba146902d9e306d27dced593bb674.jpeg3EE0E73C-E854-45C0-8211-3FD7179FD8E0.jpeg.aa3af0383cec6b63948206d12110658e.jpegB2666B05-9512-4B3E-9381-0C99667CC915.jpeg.dc69a21e2b010d01fa7db3e6983c1aa8.jpeg

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Found this early picture of my Marine.  Trying to decipher ribbons/medals.  Ribbons might be Silver Star w/2 star devices, WW 1 ribbon w/5 stars, Marine Expeditionary w/2 stars.  Top row I see Good conduct (before the 7 other awards),  Marksmanship badge, WW 1 Victory medal (with 5 stars rather than the bars). Bottom row (2) Croix de Guerre.  Not sure what the small rod/baton? and braid represent.  Any ideas, out there?  I really appreciate all of the comments, advice, and knowledge imparted.  Thanks!

 

IMG_1366.jpg.f7310c5e7cc4b324cd2229ea65d37379.jpg

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Hiram, 

 

Thanks for the close ups. Based on his campaign clasps and the ribbon bars it certainly looks like he was awarded medals from St Mihiel,  Chateau Thierry and Verdun. 

 

As for the photo, I don’t think the first ribbon is the Silver Star. The actual medal was not created until 1932. My guess at ribbon bar in the photo would be the Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal with 2 campaign stars. (Created as a ribbon only award in 1919, medal added in 1921), his World War One victory medal with either his campaign stars, silver citation stars or both, and either his Good Conduct Medal or the Croix de Guerre with palm and star.

 

The baton holding the braid is the French method of holding medals. I believe he braid is a miniature version of the fourragère he wears on his shoulder. Found an image of some online. See below.

E92191B4-ED55-4E12-AEA2-225FC71376FE.jpeg.a2298e45b124396797549131a64abd5a.jpeg

 

Friar

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Here is a forum topic with some examples of the miniature  fourrageres with their award cards. They were issued by the Marine Corps to those units that had earned the cords from the French in WW1 (5th and 6th Marines). From what I could find they were most likely mean to for civilian attire but like your picture shows they often ended up on uniforms. 

 

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I’d remove those ribbons and pins from that old case ASAP.  That aging foam will degrade and adhere to everything in there, causing significant damage.
 

 For long term storage, consider using buffered archival boxes lined with acid free archival tissue….

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Got a question.  If my guy has a Silver Star medal w/gold star device, does he retain the two small silver star devices on his WW 1 Victory medal?  His original citations mention the adding of the silver star device to that medal.

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Hiram,

 

My understanding is when requested the conversion of their silver citation stars to the Silver Star Medal, they would no longer wear the citation stars on whatever campaign ribbon they originally had stars on. 

 

Friar

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Quick question.  I have a 6 inch piece of ribbon for a WW 1 army of occupation medal.  It has a FRANCE bar/clasp on it I can easily slide it off of the ribbon.  However, I am not sure how to  apply it to the actual medal I have.  Not sure if it is hinged, pinned, etc. Nothing really obvious.  Before I go about this I thought I might get some good advise from others.  TIA!

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On 10/6/2021 at 7:53 PM, hiram392 said:

Got a question.  If my guy has a Silver Star medal w/gold star device, does he retain the two small silver star devices on his WW 1 Victory medal?  His original citations mention the adding of the silver star device to that medal.

This video is for a slot broach, not a wrap broach, but a wrap broach should be self-explanatory. This shows you how to fold/crimp the ribbon...

 

 

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RIBBONS.jpg.5d9171f76185939ec81a4dfa2046d378.jpg

I know I have entered quite a few pix and seem to have many questions.  I hope that I am nearing a stopping point.  It has been a real hassle not being able to have a service record to refer to. (They tell 1.5 to 2 years to get.)  However, I do have Red Ducey's actual medals and ribbons to refer to.  As you can see I have tried to place his ribbons in proper order.  These are the approx. 1/2" x 1 3/4" medals.  Additionally, I have a WW2 Victory medal.  It is a smaller ribbon.  As I said above I have a Distinguished Service Cross medal and ribbon.  I was thinking of also creating a ribbon rack of the smaller sized ribbons and including the DSC and WW2 VM ribbons to it.  I am open to any suggestions, corrections, or what the hell were you thinking comments.  I am trying to use his ribbons and medals rather than replace.  They are bumping the century mark and really need to be placed somewhere that they can be enjoyed and preserved.  Thanks for all the comments in the past and I look forward to hearing more. 

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Service record is actually attainable in about 6 months. Once the archives open back to researchers, you can have a private researcher pull it in about a week

 

I think that NARA is still doing FOIA requests even during the pandemic

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I think the top ribbon is a ribbon for the Veterans of Foreign Wars Membership Medal.  The ribbons are similar, the difference being the center stripe.  White for the Certificate of Merit and yellow for the VFW Medal.   I don’t think the Certificate of Merit medal was awarded to Marines.

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13 minutes ago, Bruce Linz said:

I think the top ribbon is a ribbon for the Veterans of Foreign Wars Membership Medal.  The ribbons are similar, the difference being the center stripe.  White for the Certificate of Merit and yellow for the VFW Medal.   I don’t think the Certificate of Merit medal was awarded to Marines.

Agree with Bruce on his statement.

 

Bill

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Prior to 1949 the Marine Corps Good Conduct medal went next to last place followed by the Reserve Medal - With US awards they were considered a "Service Medals" vs. a Campaign Medal but they went before any foreign ribbons.

 

The wider ribbons were made obsolete in 1949

 

Bill

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Sorry about that.  Dog hit send!  When I look at the medal and the ribbon together I don’t see any yellow on them.  Even when I look at the edge or back.  Makes sense that it is VFW since I have both.  Thanks!

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I saw that and thought that was what it was, but didn’t find the medal.  Also seems to be quite a rare piece to come across.  Quite pricey if you can locate one.  During my search I also saw the same medal with heads facing right, not left with a very pale blue ribbon.  Not sure if it was a different version.  They were calling it the same award.  Of course I have to believe it is…it’s on the internet! Ha ha.

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Hello,

 

After World War I, the French found a very lucrative market in producing souvenirs for Americans and other allied soldiers.  This included a variety of commemorative medals.  It is important to note that all these medals were never sanctioned by the French government.  These medals included medals for many famous battles such as Chateau-Thierry, Marne, St. Michel, and Verdun.  These medals were designed and produced by several different companies.  They were also made for many years after the Great War ended.  As such, there are numerous versions, examples and variations.  Some of these medals, especially the earliest examples are beautiful.  Now days most of these medals can be found and purchased on eBay as well as dealer's lists and their web sites.  Yes, some of them are rather pricey, but for a few hundred dollars you can acquire them all in a short amount of time.  I also think that some servicemen just bought and wore the ribbons for these medals.  Many World War I veterans it seems had a thing for state, city, and county medals, veteran organizations and their medals, as well as, different foreign commemorative medals.  It sure makes for some beautiful and interesting groups.

 

Bruce Linz

 

 

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OK guys, moved ribbons around some, per comments. (GC & SMRM).  Tell me what you think. I added the Chateau Thierry ribbon and moved the VFW to end.  All are WW1 era.  Only WW2 medal and ribbon I have is Victory medal.  I won't know if he earned others until I see something from service records.  Hopefully, I am getting close to proper order.  Yeah, I know nobody but folks like us care about precedence, but I think they need to be in proper order. Yes, including the VFW medal.  Still not sure about the "4" on the GCM as he had 7 bars on his medal.RIBBONS2.jpg.4938bf71444559a8b48ecc148d237b36.jpg

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I would order the foreign commemoratives in the order of Chateau Thierry, St. Mihiel, and then Verdun as that is the chronological order of the battles these medals represent. While the sale of souvenir medals was certainly popular in France, all three of these medals were officially issued/made available by the towns they represent for service members who participated in certain campaigns. Each town maintains a book of known recipients. I believe both St Mihiel and Verdun are still issuing medals to those who can prove eligibility. I’m trying to get a Verdun Medal for my wife’s great grandfather. 

 

This link is to an interesting blog that discusses the historic and current awarding of the Verdun Medal. 

https://patriotgenealogy.com/verdun-the-people-of-france-do-not-forget/#.YWO0aSVOmEf

 

Friar

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Found that site today.  Great information.  I will rearrange those 3.  Thanks!  Boy, my own ribbons seem so much easier.  Trying to follow a partial paper trail from so long ago is trying at times and not having anyone around to discuss doesn’t help either.  Have learned quite a bit from this forum.

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