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WW 1 & WW 2 Marine - medals and precedence, including foreign medals


hiram392
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I am a board member of a county Historical Society, in Ohio. I am trying to create a display of medals received for our county's most decorated soldier. (James A. Ducey) I do not have much in the way of service files to accessor refer to. I have a photo of medals he has received, in no particular order. (TOP) They include: 2nd DIV. AEF medal, WW 2 Victory medal, USMC Expeditionary medal #717 (APR 1931), (BOTTOM) Good Conduct medal (8 awards), French Battle of Verdun medal. WW 1 Victory medal w/5 bars, Croix de Guerre (2) awards, a VFW member medal, Silver Star (2) Awards, and an Expert pistol badge. Any assistance is appreciated.

ducey 1.jpg

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That is an absolutely stellar group of medals! The proper prescience would be:

 

Silver Star

Good Conduct Medal 

WW1 Victory

Marine Expeditionary

WW2 Victory

>>

French Croix de Guerre

Verdun Medal

2nd Division Medal

VFW Medal

Marksman badge

 

I added the ">>" as if it were me, I would display them in two rows of five, with the federal awards separate from the foreign, association, and marksman awards.

 

We'd love to see a photo of the reverse of the Silver Star and the Good Conduct, for certain, if you'd be willing to share!

 

Dave

 

 

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Here are the reverse.  Ribbons are pretty frail.  Was wondering if original medals might be able to be reset with new ribbons.  Should I clean and polish the bars on Good Conduct and WW1 Victory medals as well as medals themselves.  Am hoping to get these into a shadow box along with other items.  He retired as a CWO in 1948.  Initially enlisted in 1917.  Only paperwork I have are copies of multiple enlistment and discharge forms that also reference Good Conduct award.  Was able to find a couple of items online pertaining to Silver Stars.  1st award he was a Sergeant with 18th Company, Fifth Regiment (Marines), 2nd Div. A.E.F. at Chateau- Thierry, France 6 June-10 July, 1918.  2nd award he was a Sergeant with 18th Company, Fifth Regiment (Marines), 2nd Div. A.E.F. at Soissons, France 18-22 July, 1918.

ducey 2.jpg

DUCEY CITATION 2.jpg

DUCEY CITATION.jpg

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Thanks, for the input.  I am hoping to at least straighten the attachments on the Good Conduct medal.   His name is etched on the 2nd Division medal as well as the Silver Star.  By having 2 awards of the Silver Star, I believe there should be a gold star device attached to the ribbon?   I will have to make a run up to the museum next time I go to town to locate the number on the Good Conduct medal.  We also have a couple of larger Croix de Guerre citations hanging in our military room.  I need to get a closer look at them to see if there is additional info on them.  Anyone know what the acronym CdG-G, and B stand for on the smaller citation I attached?  I know the CdG portion, just not sure about the rest.  Not really sure if there are other awards he received.  One citation mentions a bronze star, I believe.  Have been working with my local Veterans Service office, but it is slow going getting anything from above.  Girl in the office said that archives group is at about 10% of normal staffing since COVID.  It may be a year or more to get his service records.

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What you want to do when you mount them in a display is pin them to an acid-free cloth backing, then lift the planchet of the medals a bit and stitch a few loops around the suspension ring to the backing. This will take the weight of the planchets off the ribbons. You can also pin the bars of the GCM through the backing.

 

If you don't do this, then long term, you're going to eventually have the ribbons fray and weaken, and be torn through by the weight of the planchets.

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My best guess for CdG-G and B is: Croix de Guerre - Gold and Bronze star. The Bronze star attachment is a French Regiment level award, the Gold star is a Division level award.

 

Regards 

Herman 

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Hermanus, that was my initial thought, also.  I also saw reference to a bronze palm leaf.  However stars make more sense.

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Hermanus, that was my initial thought, also.  I also saw reference to a bronze palm leaf.  However stars make more sense.

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1 hour ago, hiram392 said:

M1903- Our museum is in Washington Court House.

 

USMCR79 - number of GCM is 21550.

Thank you!!

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Saw this picture online.  Not sure who he is.  Looks to be a LT.  Dave, posted earlier a list for precedence.  Looking at this photo, I am seeing a different order.  Judging by what I have in hand vs picture I am seeing what I believe to be... Silver Star, Croix de Guerre, WW 1 Victory Ribbon, Good Conduct (rifle above medal?), not sure??, 2nd Division medal, Purple Heart, possibly Battle of Verdun medal and not sure about last.  He also has a French Fourragere braid as well as a 2nd Division shoulder patch.  Maybe I should use this as an example for my display?  Thoughts??

ww 1 picture.jpg

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collectsmedals

For what it is worth I would go with the regulation prescribed order of precedence, but its hard to argue with a period photograph. Either was it is an outstanding group, congratulations.

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Regs I have looked at don't seem to have early ribbons and medals listed.  I would think that a shave tail would have his "stuff" together and in proper order.  

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Guy I am trying to get info on was in WW 1 & WW 2, USMC.  So I have a mix of old and older medals.  Most are WW 1, though.

 

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manayunkman
On 9/15/2021 at 6:19 PM, hiram392 said:

Hermanus, that was my initial thought, also.  I also saw reference to a bronze palm leaf.  However stars make more sense.


The Marine in the photo has a large oak leaf on his SS.

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Bruce Linz

I think you mean the Purple Heart has a large oak leaf cluster on it.  I wonder if the Purple Heart is with the group.   A truly stunning group to a brave Marine.

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In WWI and WWII, Marines being often drafted and rushed to combat were usually not familiar with uniform regs and pinned the medals on in the order they earned them instead of precedence, so unless you have an original photo I would recommend following the uniform regulations.

 

That said, the regulations changed from WWI to WWII...specifically, the placement of the Good Conduct Medal, which was originally at the end of the order before being moved up. So since he had WWII awards, I'd follow WWII precedence, which I believe is the same as today's

 

Keep in mind that the 2nd Division and VFW medals were not military regulation awards, and thus won't be found on any precedence charts or regulation manuals and should probably just go on the end of the row. I would go 2nd Division followed by VFW

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FriarChuck

I believe your unknown medals that bookend the Marine LTs bottom row are the Pennsylvania World War Federal Service Medal on the photos left and the Chateau-Thierry Medal in the far right.

 

16E0203F-5BF1-41C6-B2BB-8B8F11244B40.jpeg

B21441A1-92EB-4992-A7C2-1BB648A59D53.jpeg

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Folks, things just got a bit more complicated.  Was back at the museum yesterday and found this case of my guy's ribbons.  It looks like there are multiple sets here.  Also see an officer chinstrap with gold/silver and subdued AGE's.  He retired as a Warrant Officer.  I see the bursting shells that should tell me he was a Gunner, correct?  I see insignias for WO1-Marine as well as Navy, I believe.  I also see Army GCM as well as a section of ribbon for Germany Occupation with a bar that says France on it.  Not sure what the small black object is just below the chinstrap, on the left side.  Small object above the strap is a very small AGE pin.  Yeah, I know it is a mess right now, but this is what I wanted to do.  I want to make a presentation that truly honors him.  Any input is appreciated.  What I really need is to be able to get his service record.  Have been in touch with Croix de Guerre folks and have sent them pix of his citation and medal and one of the ribbons, here.

IMG_1099.jpg

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FriarChuck

Can you take some close up photos of the ribbon bars please? And a close up of his victory medal. It looks the upper right bar includes the French medals from  Chateau Thierry and St Mihiel. I know you don’t have those as full medals but based on the number of clasps on his victory medal and the fact that he has the Verdun medal he was probably eligible for both.

 

Very respectfully,

 

Friar 

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FriarChuck. Here is Victory medal.  I believe there should be 2 silver stars attached based on citation I saw.21F438A0-F82E-419B-9FE3-15ADEA1A23DE.jpeg.b67eacaf81ee91936723263c7ed06ac8.jpeg

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