Officer AAF Blue Mess Dress Uniform Help

[tonk]

I am needing help dating this mess jacket, rank? any other info? It's named but can't find anything on search.  It was found with some unrelated WW2 items. Thanks!

[patches]

It's a Post WWII one seeing it's made in Germany. a company named Protzmann in Würzburg, I not overly familiar with the diferent styles of mess uniforms, others are and will lok in to give dates, like if it is late 40s or 50s or 60s.

[tonk]

I missed that obvious clue, I must be getting senile. Thank you!

[QED4]

All formal uniforms were dropped during WWII, the mess dress uniform came back in 1952. The sleeve orniments were changed in 1975 to a single trefoil with the rank insignia in the bottom from the rank being shown by the number of loops in the trefoil and the branch of service insignia in the bottom Yours is a Colonel of Infantry and was worn sometime between 1952 and 1975 

[tonk]

Thank you very much for the info!

[patches]

11 hours ago, QED4 said:

All formal uniforms were dropped during WWII, the mess dress uniform came back in 1952. The sleeve orniments were changed in 1975 to a single trefoil with the rank insignia in the bottom from the rank being shown by the number of loops in the trefoil and the branch of service insignia in the bottom Yours is a Colonel of Infantry and was worn sometime between 1952 and 1975 

Thanks QE.

[patches]

Going by QE4's dating this I was able to  find your man.

 

He was in the Army long time by 1967, as of January 1967 he was only a Lieutenant .Colonel Temporary with permanent rank Major, he first comes in as a EM in 1937, and becomes a Officer it seems in 1947, with a Reserve Commission., but by 1967 he has a Regular Commission, his source of commission says Appointment from Competitive Tour (Need qualification on this because we're not sure what this means). I might of been able to grab an actual photo of him as he went to the Command & General Staff College cause I have a lot of their graduation yearbooks, but only took the Abbreviated Course or as it's called Associated Course, so those guys are not in the yearbooks.

[patches]

By January 1969, now he's a Full Colonel. but only a Temp, probably made Perm a bit later perhaps, Sounds like he had an interesting career, as Infantry he may have been in action in WWII, Korea and Vietnam, giving him Three Awards of the Combat infantryman's Badge, but can't much so far.

 

Only this, and article he wrote for the Army's Aviation Digest in 1963.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=Gla5TYvZOTIC&pg=RA7-PA21&lpg=RA7-PA21&dq=colonel+edward+b.+blackman&source=bl&ots=ccXJdJznfj&sig=ACfU3U1PFapIN_wolV1hLFu97YX_c2U8uA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi7663kvenyAhWWvJ4KHTQcDFUQ6AF6BAgREAM#v=onepage&q=colonel edward b. blackman&f=false

[easterneagle87]

10 hours ago, QED4 said:

All formal uniforms were dropped during WWII, the mess dress uniform came back in 1952. The sleeve orniments were changed in 1975 to a single trefoil with the rank insignia in the bottom from the rank being shown by the number of loops in the trefoil and the branch of service insignia in the bottom Yours is a Colonel of Infantry and was worn sometime between 1952 and 1975 

Make that a LT COL, 5 loops. and yes Infantry. Nice jacket. Will be interesting to get an accounting of his awards.  

[tonk]

  Great info guys, thank you.

[tonk]

I was able to find a couple more articles. Is there a records facility that I am able to access online? Thanks again guys!

https://www.arizonacustomknives.com/products/397651/

 

[patches]

By the record posted, he seems to have been officer since WWII A Air Corps Pilot, perhaps the 1947 date in his registry is when he entered the Army proper and did not go into the new Air Force, and became a Army Aviator, thus the 1963 article in Aviation Digest.

 

Was just looking around for more on him, it's strange there is nothing on him.

[QED4]

13 hours ago, easterneagle87 said:

Make that a LT COL, 5 loops. and yes Infantry. Nice jacket. Will be interesting to get an accounting of his awards.  

Five loops is a Full Colonel. They start at 1st Lieutenant with one and go up from there. 2nd Lieutenant had no loops just the band around the cuff but I think if a 2nd LT had a mess dress jacket post WWII he would wear a single loop too, but I am not sure of that.  

[easterneagle87]

35 minutes ago, QED4 said:

Five loops is a Full Colonel. They start at 1st Lieutenant with one and go up from there. 2nd Lieutenant had no loops just the band around the cuff but I think if a 2nd LT had a mess dress jacket post WWII he would wear a single loop too, but I am not sure of that.  

Interesting, I was just going off of what I remember from the Uniform Regulations as listed in AR 670-1

 

(3) Previously authorized sleeve ornamentation (which consists of the sleeve band, the branch insignia centered in the space formed by the lower curves of the trefoil and the upper edge of the sleeve band, and the number of trefoils appropriate to the specific grade of the wearer) is authorized for wear for the life of the jacket. This option is for commissioned officers only, and it applies only to jackets purchased prior to 11 August 1975. This ornamentation is not authorized for jackets purchased after 11 August 1975.

[Edelweisse]

An Austrian knot rank system with the branch insignia at the bottom. The number of knots indicated the officer's rank: five for colonel, four for lieutenant colonel, three for major, two for captain, one for first lieutenant, and none for second lieutenant. This complicated system, which required that the braid be altered with a change of rank, was replaced with the evening coat style in 1972, using a single knot and the rank placed above the branch-of-service color. A white mess jacket for summertime wear was introduced in the 1950s. The "special evening dress" (tails) was finally abolished in 1969, although officers already in possession of this uniform could continue to wear it until 1975.

[Edelweisse]

Stars and Stripes article…101st Air…center small article.  MAJ Edward B. Blackman

[QED4]

This system goes back to when the trefoils were first used and 2nd Lt's had no rank insignia (before 1917 if I remember right with out looking it up) they simply wore an officers uniform. This is also why silver out ranks gold, you would think it would be the other way around but the gold ranks were an after thought when the silver ranks were already established. The military loves tradition so it was never changed.  

[Justin B.]

16 hours ago, easterneagle87 said:

Make that a LT COL, 5 loops. and yes Infantry. Nice jacket. Will be interesting to get an accounting of his awards.  

 

Second lieutenant had the straight stripe but no loops, so five braids is full colonel. 1971 reg:

 

[Edelweisse]

I believe that the blue is for aviation branch color….not baby blue infantry.

[KurtA]

38 minutes ago, Edelweisse said:

I believe that the blue is for aviation branch color….not baby blue infantry.

Aviation is two colors. Ultramarine blue (very different from the infantry blue of this mess jacket) and golden orange 

[Edelweisse]

I also thought of that when I posted this….since I used to own a few aviation dress blue shoulder boards and dress blue visor caps…..but the blue on the lapel is not baby light blue color (infantry) I also used to own an aviation mess dress and it didn’t have blue & orange gold lapel…the lapels are always one color…but the branch colors should have the appropriate colors.

[Justin B.]

12 minutes ago, KurtA said:

Aviation is two colors. Ultramarine blue (very different from the infantry blue of this mess jacket) and golden orange 

 

True, but only the first color is used for the lapels and sleeve stripe. But anyway, the Air Corps was eliminated in 1947 and Army Aviation not established till 1983.

[easterneagle87]

4 minutes ago, KurtA said:

Aviation is two colors. Ultramarine blue (very different from the infantry blue of this mess jacket) and golden orange 

 

Agreed, as the "official" Aviation branch wasn't established until 1983, well past the use/wear of this jacket. The color band on the cuff sure looks light blue. Maybe the blue lapel colors just look darker in the photo. There are a couple of other branches utilizing "blue', such as Military Intelligence. All Army aviators served in their base branches (Infantry, Artillery, Transportation, etc.) without having a recognized branch of their own. More records will identify which branch and courses he completed. 

 

Although he was a qualified aviator during WW2 (which used the ultramarine blue and golden orange branch colors) and would have earned AF style wings, the above section of his DD-214 shows him being specifically awarded/earned all three levels of Army Aviation status and associated wings (Basic/Senior/Master). 

[patches]

As far as the Branch Colors on this jacket, it must be pointed out that there was no Aviation Branch when Blackman was around, officers who were aviators were just in the original branch they were commissioned in, in Blackman's case Infantry and wore Crossed Rifles always. if Ordnance Corps then Ordnance Bomb etc etc.

 

Here's a well know example.

 

Bruce Crandall MOH of the 1st Cavalry Division, Crandall was commissioned in the Corps of Engineers, so he wears that insignia.

 

 

[patches]

And one more.

Patrick Brady MOH, now Brady was commissioned in the Medical Service Corps. So like Blackman with his Infantry Blue Facings on his Mess Jacket, Brady's will be Medical Corps Maroon, and so on and so on.