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20,000 dollar B-15


phantomfixer
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Bluehawk

The show has become sort of like the original Orange County Choppers series, kinda sorta interesting now and then but no substitute for a good old-fashioned soap opera if you like that sort of thing  :rolleyes:

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Pawn Stars is so lacking in credibility that if they "valued" the jacket at 20K for an episode of their TV show then I sure would not believe it; I do not know where the valuation came from though. No offense if you enjoy that program, I used to until finding out how it operates behind the scenes.

 

An amazing piece either way though.

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phantomfixer

I don't know who the gentleman is that gave the appraisal/value, but it appears a forum member owns the jacket and has inside knowledge of the provenance of the jacket not related on the show.  The show basically says the jacket is from, could be from a crew member from the Enola Gay or Boxcar, or from another crewmember serving in the squadron...we will have to wait and see the book that is to be published to see why this jacket was appraised so high...will be interesting to find out....

 

I like to watch American Pickers and at times Pawn Stars, I just happened to be flipping through when the show title caught my eye and figured it might be interesting....

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Thanks phantomfixer for the auctions sites info.

The flying tiger antiques article say that this patch was from the time period of 1945-46. When the 509th was stationed at Roswell AFB.

 

This should be a very interesting thread.

 

Semper Fi

Phil 

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Im not sure if the sites like:

 

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/ or https://www.ima-usa.com/ are any good prices determinants..

 

Here is a nice example: https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-u-s-wwii-navy-dungaree-trousers-and-chambray-shirt-as-seen-in-book - post war dungarees sets for 1000 USD (in poor condition)

 

or: 

I would be very skeptical in any estimates showed in a TV shows like these... in 95% their prices are from space... the same here: 20k for unknown jacket? Guys please!

 

Take care,

Jerry

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phantomfixer
32 minutes ago, jerry_k said:

Im not sure if the sites like:

 

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/ or https://www.ima-usa.com/ are any good prices determinants..

 

Here is a nice example: https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-u-s-wwii-navy-dungaree-trousers-and-chambray-shirt-as-seen-in-book - post war dungarees sets for 1000 USD (in poor condition)

 

or: 

I would be very skeptical in any estimates showed in a TV shows like these... in 95% their prices are from space... the same here: 20k for unknown jacket? Guys please!

 

Take care,

Jerry

I agree thats why I posted the jacket initially, on face value I do not see it, based on what I see, the jacket is not a standard issue B-15...will wait for the book to see what the provenance is....

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That’s the standard issue B15 with In OD cotton, like all the others we are used to seeing. 

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6 hours ago, phantomfixer said:

Estimates are the biggest crock in the business...they're just some self-appointed expert slapping an arbitrary number on an item, usually high, hoping that it drives people to bid thinking anything short of the estimate is a steal of a deal

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Rabbit trail detected. I'm on it!

 

The IMA "WWII" denim dungarees are typically considered by USN collectors to be the post war to KW. The button hip pocket is a dead giveaway.

Not too much I have seen from IMA would prevent me from buying poorly.

 

As for the B-15 on Ebay, just looked and not one of my B-9s, B-10s, or B-15s have a label that says "Original Type" at the bottom where you typically find the word "Property".

Along with the straight pull Conmar zip, poorly made repro patch and rank insignia, and bizarre ink-stamped cotton name tag, l am very comfortable calling this a civilian jacket made up at a later date. Maybe a reunion-type jacket or perhaps patched up to deceive. I have not looked up the B-15 contract numbers but we have seen these before - some with correct contract and order numbers and others with bogus numbers yet both civi/sporting versions.

 

Dave

 

P.S. I welcome those more knowledgeable to step in but I did just look it up and the Spec number of 2352 or whatever is NOT a match to the B-15, B-15A, or B-15B. Those are all #3220. We have done such a search before on similar labels and often the numbers end up matching pants or some other good or, as mentioned above, a made up number.

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phantomfixer
2 hours ago, dmar836 said:

Rabbit trail detected. I'm on it!

 

The IMA "WWII" denim dungarees are typically considered by USN collectors to be the post war to KW. The button hip pocket is a dead giveaway.

Not too much I have seen from IMA would prevent me from buying poorly.

 

As for the B-15 on Ebay, just looked and not one of my B-9s, B-10s, or B-15s have a label that says "Original Type" at the bottom where you typically find the word "Property".

Along with the straight pull Conmar zip, poorly made repro patch and rank insignia, and bizarre ink-stamped cotton name tag, l am very comfortable calling this a civilian jacket made up at a later date. Maybe a reunion-type jacket or perhaps patched up to deceive. I have not looked up the B-15 contract numbers but we have seen these before - some with correct contract and order numbers and others with bogus numbers yet both civi/sporting versions.

 

Dave

 

P.S. I welcome those more knowledgeable to step in but I did just look it up and the Spec number of 2352 or whatever is NOT a match to the B-15, B-15A, or B-15B. Those are all #3220. We have done such a search before on similar labels and often the numbers end up matching pants or some other good or, as mentioned above, a made up number.

the Ebay B-15, IMO, is indeed a commercial jacket....I believe all the B-15 jackets had the offset zipper up until the B-15C....

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phantomfixer

off topic but B-15 related, In 1983 I enlisted in the USAF, went to basic, then onto Sheppard AFB for tech school, the BX had mannequins in the exchange, about 6 or so with B-15A flight jackets, all brand new dead stock...no real advertising just displayed for some reason, I am sure a stash was found on base, and decided to use them to promote USAF history or some such...I imagine they were taken down and disposed of eventually..who knows...

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Interesting. This one sure looks to part to the uninitiated. A lot looks old and "good" and would make most say, "Who would do that if it isn't real?" The woven labels were the norm in the 40s and 50s and the sporting industry during/after the war is just clothing history we never talk about. Truth is there are a lot of them like this. I suppose it must be one of those cases of handling or studying a lot of them to see the subtle differences. I'm not the expert but this one doesn't check the boxes at all to me for the stated reasons.

Dave

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  • 3 weeks later...
Austin_Militaria

That is an unusual color. If that were a commercially made jacket there would be others that would be on the market and I have never seen one.

 

But what I find unusual is that if this was developed for the Manhattan project it would have been made by the US Government and not contracted out. Even making this internally is a stretch as very few people actually knew that a nuclear bomb was being made. There is zero record of any type of special clothing that was made for the crew. If you develop something you would want to know if it worked or not, and there is no record of it.  The other unusual thing is that by 1945 the B-15A was being issued. This had the small triangular leather pieces above the breast area. It also had some short straps with snaps close to the armpits. Also there are no snaps on the pockets which was found on both the B-15 and B-15A model. Even the early B-10 had buttons on the pockets. Is there even a sleeve pen pocket? So why would a jacket be developed not using some common designs that were already in use? Development is compounded by using common features that are already in place and then adding to them.  Just my two cents and some logical questions.

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Austin_Militaria

The first patch design had the 509 and 58th Wing lettering. It also had the mushroom cloud and lightning bolts striking an X. This was similar to the Manhatten Project patch that was given out shortly after the bombs were dropped. 

 

The atomic symbol would not have been added to the design of their patch until the late 1940's, around the same time the Atomic Energy Commision and their seal design in 1949. But this patch was before 1952 as a typical shape USAF wing patch was then created.

220px-0509th_Bomb_Group_emblem_(B-29_Era).gif

509throswellafbobv.jpg

Screenshot_20210916-130933_Chrome.jpg

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phantomfixer

I am still holding out for “the book”to come out… if it’s a jacket just for the crews that flew the first missions that would be cool.. 

 

but the statement that it is a regular tagged B-15 leads many to question the jacket.. as the physical details of the jacket do not reflect an issue B-15

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