Opinions please on this Converted Krag Bayonet

[The Rooster]

Greetings all. I picked this up last week off ebay.

Its a 1901 Krag bayonet thats been converted to a knife. The barrel ring has been removed along with some of the guard on the other side.

The bayonet mechanisims have been neatly filled with lead. It is lead as I scratched it with my fingernail.

But its been very neatly done. Its pretty heavy with the lead in the end. And I like how they shaped the tip.

Dont know why they did not put a strap on the sheath to keep the thing from flying out ???

Paid 80 bucks for it. How'd I do ?

[Misfit 45]

Very nice.  I love the way the Krag handle was made.  Strong and over engineered.  Is it lead filled?  It's a nice job.

Marv

[mikedon]

Nice one. The scabbard looks like a cut down M1912 picket pin scabbard. Bannerman's sold full size Krag bayonets with these scabbards back in the day. I have several WWII sword knives that came in a cut down M1912 picket pin scabbard, (not cut down quite as much as yours).

[The Rooster]

Thats a nice One !!! And thank you for cluing me in on the sheath !

And yes the inside of the bayonet has lead neatly filled into the bayonets missing mechanism holes.

Its also real heavy at the back end from the lead..

Who ever did it, did a nice job of filling it in..

[SKIPH]

Over the years we've seen quite a few converted Krag bayonets on ebay. I don't recall seeing one where the owner made the effort to fill in the slot, and catch hole with lead. The lead would give the light weight converted knife a little extra heft.  Something I often wondered was why the US did not keep, or reintroduce the Krag bayonet for the M1903, or the Garand. It fits on both weapons. I understand that the 16" M1905 was used to compensate for the shorter length M1903 rifle which carried over to the Garand. But there were plenty of Krag bayonets around early on  to perhaps consider it for at least some duties.  Granted, it is a much lighter, and less robust  bayonet than the M1. Just a passing thought. I would almost bet it was considered at some point. West Point used them from the Krag to the M1.  So they were functional for quite a while.  SKIP

[The Rooster]

Thats an interesting question. My jaded answer would have to do with the US Govts and the militarys

propensity for waste. Like food !!! They waste a tons of it. Remember all the food thrown out of the mess halls after every meal ??

Or the blanks they issued us. We could not keep the excess each month, and if they turned in, left overs, they would get shorted on it the following months....

Could not put in in lockers or take it home.... So they made us bury it.

I saw it, I was shocked by it too.

So my thinking goes.... New rifle, even though the Krag bayonets fit, new rifle new bayonets. Cost be dammed.

Seems like thats how things roll ?

Im serious too I dont mean to sound like a wise acre.

 

The thing that drew me too it was the filled in holes. I did not know it was lead but it is for sure. Real soft metal very heavy.

Dont know if thats safe to be holding in a persons hand for too long?

Meaning lead leaching onto the skin since its not covered or shelacked etc...

?

[thorin6]

I have been collecting cut-down Krag bayonets for some time, and studying them as well.  Also I've looked over many M1917 bayonets that were cut down.  There seems to be a distinct pattern that emerges as more common than most, and that is the one in this post.  The length of these (both Krag and M1917 bayonets) appears the same (about 6-1/2 inches, plus or minus a little), the barrel ring cut off and smoothed, and the button removed and filled in with lead (as well as the socket).  The blades always have the clip point.  Many of the Krags appear in modified Picket Pin scabbards, while the M1917s appear in well-made leather sheaths.

I have two theories on these.  First is that they are WW1 modifications.  Our troops were not issued sheath knives for general use, and the Krag bayonets were converted along with M1917 bayonets, possibly from broken ones.  The M1917 bayonets would be twice as numerous as M1907s as twice as many M1917 rifles were in theater as M1903s.

My second theory is that these were Bannerman modification of surplus items after the war, and possibly made for WW2 when initially there was a demand for hunting knives in 1942.  They would have had the combination of Krag bayonets and Picket Pin scabbards necessary to made batches of these for soldiers.

As I said, I've been studying them for years, and while I've seen a variety of cut-down Krag bayonets, these come up so often that I believe they had to be made to meet a specific purpose and not just a one-of-a-kind use by a soldier or back-yard smith.

Comments are welcome.

[SKIPH]

thorin6- Great input Bill. Makes sense to me. There was a very high demand for knives n both WW1 & WW2. Seen lots of knives produced by soldiers in WW1, which tend to be broken French, British, and even Canadian Ross bayonets. Makes sense it continued into WW2, and a Bannerman tie would fit a bill.  THX. SKIP

[thorin6]

Here are two cut down bayonets to show what I'm talking about, one M1917 on top with its sheath, and one on the bottom with its sheath (cut down Picket Pin sheath).  Note that both are approximately the same length, have button catches removed and filled in with lead, and blades have the clip point.

 

 

[The Rooster]

Those are awesome Thorin !

They Look just like the one I picked up. Similar sheath too .

I found a few on ebay

in the last few days.

I noticed on mine that the blade is real sharp.

[thorin6]

The ones I've seen tend to be well used and sharpened well.

[The Rooster]

You think then that these were all converted by one company ?

They all seem similar.

[thorin6]

Converted at one place, either during WWI by the military or by a surplus company like Bannerman between the wars or just before WW2.

[Doctorofwar]

My cut down 1895 dated US Krag and P13 5-17 dated bayonets with the scabbards they came to me in.  My krag has the same lead filling of the mortise and is well used like all I have seen.  The cut down scabbard has a faint HTK danish mark on the throat that has been painted over.  The Remington produced P13 still has the lock button and the mortise is not filled, but the muzzle ring has been removed and although not US surcharged came with the cutdown scabbard with M1910 belt hanger.  I had always assumed these were some sort of foreign aid pieces but have seen more theories on this thread than elsewhere.  

[Doctorofwar]

One side of my Krag grip is marked:

S.L.A.Z 42

and the other side is marked:

S.L.A.Z 43

 

If that makes sense to anyone.

[warroom1]

ww1 trench knihe very commin

[ccyooper]

Here is a cut down 1917 filled with lead. The scabbard is British dated 1941.  When I posted this before a guy offline wanted to buy it and said it was made for British commandos. I doubt it but it makes a nice fighting knife. 

[SKIPH]

Doctorofwar- I find the scabbard for the cut down Krag, interesting. You state it has Danish stamps, which is cool, but the scabbard body with the rivets and metal body, is S.Korean.  So as I see it the Krag cut down was partnered with a S. Korean cut down M3, or M7 scabbard, which was done for the M1 cut down bayonets they used. Appears someone just mated these items for convenience, and safety.  Interesting!  SKIP

[Doctorofwar]

On 9/6/2021 at 2:22 PM, SKIPH said:

Doctorofwar- I find the scabbard for the cut down Krag, interesting. You state it has Danish stamps, which is cool, but the scabbard body with the rivets and metal body, is S.Korean.  So as I see it the Krag cut down was partnered with a S. Korean cut down M3, or M7 scabbard, which was done for the M1 cut down bayonets they used. Appears someone just mated these items for convenience, and safety.  Interesting!  SKIP

Thanks for the info SKIP-

this is how they came to me a mere 5ish years ago, a blip in the life of the item.  I hadn’t even noticed the rivets before you pointed them out.  Scabbard and knife probably put together as a way of housing the blade in recent times- and scabbard itself pieced together as well.  
 

It also just registered with me that my other pictured cut down bayonet doesn’t have the standard grooves in the handle to differentiate it from a P07 bayonet.  Must have replaced handle scales at some point maybe when modified into a knife?

[Doctorofwar]

On 9/6/2021 at 12:52 PM, ccyooper said:

Here is a cut down 1917 filled with lead. The scabbard is British dated 1941.  When I posted this before a guy offline wanted to buy it and said it was made for British commandos. I doubt it but it makes a nice fighting knife. 

I’ve seen these advertised for sale (albeit with a different sheath) as “French Foreign Legion Commando Knives”.  ‘Commando’ smacks of marketing hype, but I believe there is a thread on here regarding their use by the French post WW2 as an issued knife.