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IW/SAW Artillery Grouping


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Hello,

 

This my artillery grouping. It includes

 

Two enlisted mans' saber belt rigs. Both rigs have a M1874 belt and US belt plate, a modified M1881 holster (cut down from 7.5 inches and large belt loop added), saber straps, a dismount hook, and a original CW cap box (no wool or vent pick). Both belts have faint arsenal marks, inspector marks and 3rd Battery. One belt has rack number 66 and the other 52. One set of saber straps has 3 Battery and rack #52 {matches the belt). One US belt plate is bench marked 874, One cap box has the subinspector mark and is made by H.G. Haedrich Philada. The other cap box has an readable maker mark and a small US on the flap. The added loop on one holster was riveted on with 6 rivets rather than using 3 rivets and stitching. On inside of the flap the initials S S&W and C are present to identify which hole to put the brass stud through depending what pistol the soldier was using, e.g., S and W Schofield or Colt SAA. The presence of such initials is very rare.

 

Model 1881 holsters were shortened to accommodate the 5.5 inch colt 45 SAA to be carry be light artillery in 1895. 

 

Cavalry gauntlets. As stated in my previous post, I purchased these as original and believe they are but could use some pointers on how to determine if they are original. Pictures are in my previous grouping.

 

An original telescope. But I'm not certain of the date of manufacture. I suspect 1880s. Opinions are welcomed.

 

A very nice M1895 forage cap with what I think is a period artillery insignia

 

The person I bought the hat from said it was a private purchase pattern 1883/1889 campaign hat. It has the proper creasing of a campaign hat. Hat has CW enlisted man's hat artillery cord and M1872 artillery hat insignia (I think). No vents. Has worn hat band with unreadable maker. I believe maker name ends with an apostrophe S and has and IK in the name. Opinions are welcome regarding this hat.

 

A uberti artillery modal SAA. Original colts demand high prices. May be someday I will be able to purchase one.

 

artillery.jpg

artillery belt 1.jpg

second atrillery holster.jpg

3rd battery 52.jpg

1574346413981.jpg

bench mark 874.jpg

strap battery 52.jpg

6 rivet holster front.jpg

6 rivet holster.jpg

artillery holster 3 rivets.jpg

3 rivet holster.jpg

s and w and c marking.jpg

cap box with small Us.jpg

lutz inspected cap box.jpg

20210809_163027.jpg

20210809_163037.jpg

20210809_162813.jpg

20210809_162841.jpg

20210809_162855.jpg

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  • 4 months later...

Hello,

 

I added a few more items to my IW/SAW light artillery grouping.

 

Gimlets/priming wire. The 18 inch one is marked Watervliet Arsenal 10 R M 85 (for 10 inch Rifle???). One is 10.75 inches with no marking and the other one  is 16 inches with no marking

Gunner's thumb stall, 

Artillery marked model 1878 canteen, 

Gunner's lanyard (civil war but likely used after the war),

A pair of glasses, and

10 rounds of 1891 Frankford arsenal produced 45 LC cartridges

Not sure how the round rope was used. It came with the lanyard

 

I have accuracy questions for the experts. 

 

I'm not expert on gimlets/priming wires. I know how they were used. Does the gimlet length represent what cannon they were used on, e.g., 12 inch mountain howitzer. Would any of the pictures gimlets be used on the light artillery cannons used against the American Indian or in the SAW? I believe only the mountain howitzer and hotchkiss were the artillery cannons used in the field against the American Indian/SAW. 

 

Thanks Eric

at group 2.jpg

at group 1.jpg

at group.jpg

artillery canteen.jpg

artillery canteen 1.jpg

gimlets.jpg

gimlets 1.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

Nice stuff, love the artillery branch of the era. I collected this branch for decades. Couple notes since you ask;  regulation gauntlets are illustrated in the QMD reprints of 1889 (by Jerome Greene) or the 1897 version more recently published. These are a must for any collector of this era. The gauntlets have a scalloped stitching pattern around the stitched rectangle on the cuff, plus a contract or QMD date inside the cuff, if still visible.  The hat insignia is proper although 1/D was a heavy artillery (seacoast or as later called coast artillery). The campaign hat is a fine private purchase one until you can acquire an 1889 snowflake vent original. By the 1880's the old CW cords were rarely worn. Same with the devices on the campaign hat. Usually when these show up on the hat they are being worn in garrison. That 3rd Battery sure marked a lot of belts. Seems every one of these has that unit stamping. The Hagner belts with that unique leather standing loop keeper system for the catch (rather than the two brass rivits) came into being sometime in the 1890's and from photos seem to show up mainly on the artillery branch. I believe they were just late period belts made at the arsenals since the field artillery branch continued to use them into the 1900's. 

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CAC1901,

 

Thanks again for your feedback to my questions. 

 

How do you know what artillery company was a mounted/light/field company. I have read a reference that states that the 1st, 2nd and 4 artillery regiments were involved in the Indian Wars. The fourth was the predominate regiment, involved in the Modoc, Nez Perce and Bannock campaigns. When you look up the history of the 4th artillery, company B appears to have always been a light/field artillery company from the 1870s to 1890s. But other companies like L and some others companies weren't mounted or light in the 1870s but in 1880s were designated as light (field) artillery depending on where the company was stationed in the US. 

 

The bottom line is I'm trying to get a accurate light/field artillery hat insignia for my M1895 forage cap. You have already indicated that the 1st regiment company D was a coastal artillery.  Do you have any examples light artillery insignia I could search for to replace 1st D company.

 

Was 2nd artillery regiment D company a light/field artillery? This insignia is currently for sale on a militaria website.

 

Eric

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello,

 

I continue to add to my light artillery display. I recently added a private purchase artillery sergeant's uniform. The 5 button sack coat and pants are in excellent condition. The sack coat  has a tailored color, waist, and sleeves. The coat has one small hole. I can't find any holes, tears, or moth nips, or stains on the outside. The pants has one small tear on the inside lining. The buttons are marked Henderson Ames. This means the pants were manufactured after 1893. 

art uniform 2.jpg

art uniform.jpg

art uniform 8.jpg

art uniform 13.jpg

art uniform 9.jpg

art uniform 10.jpg

art uniform 11.jpg

art uniform 12.jpg

art uniform 14.jpg

art uniform 3.jpg

art uniform 4.jpg

art uniform 5.jpg

art uniform 6.jpg

art uniform 7.jpg

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Nice group. The hanger on the canteen was adopted to fit the 1903 web cartridge belt with pockets for the new M1903 Rifle. It replaced the leather shoulder strap. For mounted troops, the hanger attached to the saddle and was leather.

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Thanks for the information atb, I haven't removed the canvas strap from the canteen yet. It came with the canteen. I have tried to find the model 1885 leather canteen strap. Very hard item to find and when found commands a high price.

 

Eric

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/10/2022 at 11:00 AM, utica3 said:

CAC1901,

 

Thanks again for your feedback to my questions. 

 

How do you know what artillery company was a mounted/light/field company. I have read a reference that states that the 1st, 2nd and 4 artillery regiments were involved in the Indian Wars. The fourth was the predominate regiment, involved in the Modoc, Nez Perce and Bannock campaigns. When you look up the history of the 4th artillery, company B appears to have always been a light/field artillery company from the 1870s to 1890s. But other companies like L and some others companies weren't mounted or light in the 1870s but in 1880s were designated as light (field) artillery depending on where the company was stationed in the US. 

 

The bottom line is I'm trying to get a accurate light/field artillery hat insignia for my M1895 forage cap. You have already indicated that the 1st regiment company D was a coastal artillery.  Do you have any examples light artillery insignia I could search for to replace 1st D company.

 

Was 2nd artillery regiment D company a light/field artillery? This insignia is currently for sale on a militaria website.

 

Eric

There were 5 regular Army regiments of artillery from the 1870's until 1898; the 1st thru the 5th. In 1898 2 more were added; the 6th and 7th US Artillery. 2 batteries per regiment were designated light or field artillery. I have the light battery letters set down somewhere. I had them all memorized years ago but hesitate to list them from memory....the 1st Art were batteries E and K. I think the 2nd were Batteries A and. F ...and... i better stop there. I'll try to dig them out and post them later. 

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That saw tooth edging is called pinking - so now you can speak the lingo and be on the inside! These show up on some blue tunics of the era and i love them. They are of course part of a tailoring. Some soldiers would have one or two coats done up as their best turn out coat - for special functions e.g. when you wanted / needed to look your best! I think thats why they at least survived. I kept a tailored 6-button version made up for a coast artillery fellow. Pretty natty.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/10/2022 at 11:00 AM, utica3 said:

CAC1901,

 

Thanks again for your feedback to my questions. 

 

How do you know what artillery company was a mounted/light/field company. I have read a reference that states that the 1st, 2nd and 4 artillery regiments were involved in the Indian Wars. The fourth was the predominate regiment, involved in the Modoc, Nez Perce and Bannock campaigns. When you look up the history of the 4th artillery, company B appears to have always been a light/field artillery company from the 1870s to 1890s. But other companies like L and some others companies weren't mounted or light in the 1870s but in 1880s were designated as light (field) artillery depending on where the company was stationed in the US. 

 

The bottom line is I'm trying to get a accurate light/field artillery hat insignia for my M1895 forage cap. You have already indicated that the 1st regiment company D was a coastal artillery.  Do you have any examples light artillery insignia I could search for to replace 1st D company.

 

Was 2nd artillery regiment D company a light/field artillery? This insignia is currently for sale on a militaria website.

 

Eric

 

Heres the list: 1st Art E & K, 2nd Art. A & F, 3rd Art. C & F, 4th Art. B & F, 5th Art. F & D. 6th Art. D & G, 7th Art. C & O (6th & 7th were 1899 to 1901)

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  • 1 month later...

Hi, I have 2 regulation artillery M1889 campaign hats and may sell 1 for ,let me know if you have any interest in one of them. Thanks, Paul

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  • 6 months later...

I added a few more items to my light artillery grouping.

 

A model 1840 artillery sword. It is a good example (not the best or worst). It's clear that this model sword was carried by mounted/light artillery into the late 1890s. I included two pictures that show light artillery soldiers with this model sword. My sword is faintly marked US (U is clear) and with a date of 1862. Likely an Ames sword but I can't make out a maker mark on the reverse ricasso.

 

1.65 inch Hotchkiss canister round manufactured by Winchester arms. Experts on this forum helped me identify this cannon round in a previous post.

 

Five 1891 Frankford arsenal 45 LC cartridges

 

A pair of model 1885 spurs

 

My goal is to acquire the items in the picture with enlisted soldier walking.  I have about half of them. I need the dress helmet, summer helmet and sword knot. I noticed that the soldier in the picture was issued a haversack. He also has the inch long leather strap for his canteen rather than the small leather strap with the iron hook for mounted use. He is also wearing leggings. I didn't realize light artillery soldiers wore leggings.

 

I have a question for the experts on the forum. Were light artillery soldiers issued haversacks rather than saddle bags? I didn't see a pair of saddle bags in the picture.

 

 

 

artillery group.jpg

my 1840 artillery sword 4.jpg

my 1840 artillery sword 3.jpg

my 1840 artillery sword 1.jpg

my 1840 artillery sword 2.jpg

my 1840 artillery sword.jpg

40mm 4.jpg

40mm 6.jpg

spurs 1.jpg

spurs.jpg

artillery soldier 1.jpg

artillery soldier.jpg

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The 1840 saber was part of their kit well into the early 1900s! I've seen or have pictures up til about 1910 with them wearing it on the 1904 russet belts. Old traditions you know. Yes they did get regular haversacks. Some field artillery accompanied the caissons, drove the supply wagons, or were drivers etc. They also did field training and short marches on foot, marksmen training, etc. where saddlebags were not feasible. All mounted service went to the canvas leggings in 1892 iirc.

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Two thoughts- the two long wires (gimlet & priming wire) are for siege artillery, most likely for sea coast forts.  I can't find my copy of NPS Brown's barracks book (to check the dates) but the soldier standing by his bunk has a m/1872 bed rather than the later 1904 model.

illinigander  

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Thanks illinigander for the post. I thought the gimlet was too long. Was a gimlet or priming wire used with the mountain howitzer? If so was it the little one with the wooden handle.

 

Eric

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Hello utica3- I checked with my friend Matt who is an artillery historian & collector(also owns a mountain howitzer & carriage, both original) and his comment is that no one has ever seen one.  My thoughts are that a mountain howitizer wire would not be much shorter than the size used for field calibre artillery; also that too many of the wooden-handled gimlets are seen in antique shops for them to have been an artillery issue item.  I would love to do a display copying the Span/Am photo of the Utah Battery in the Phillipines.  I have both the 3.2 gun & the 3.6 mortar but, when you move one of them, you understand why they are called crew-served weapons.

illinigander

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  • 3 months later...

I added a few more items to my artillery grouping. I recently acquired a haversack and summer pith helmet. I'm just missing the dress helmet and sword knot from the private's picture I posted above. 

 

The pith helmet is in very good condition. It did not have that elusive leather chin strap. It seems chin straps did not survive that often. It appears that it had a puggree on it at one time. 

 

The haversack looks like it was repurposed from the cavalry.

 

art uniform 15.jpg

summer pith helmet.jpg

summer pith helmet 1.jpg

summer pith helmet 2.jpg

summer pith helmet 3.jpg

art haversack.jpg

art haversack 1.jpg

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