IW/SAW Cavalry Grouping

[utica3]

I need some assistance from the experts with this cavalry grouping. BTW I posted my 1890s engineer grouping (?) in the wrong era. Please chalk that up to my first post error. I did have a few questions for that grouping too. Any feedback is appreciated.

 

This grouping includes

 

A belt rig with a M1874 belt and M1872 US plate (not sure could be M1874) , M1875 saber straps, a Mills patented Mckeever (1881) cartridge box, M1881 holster, and a original Sickles manufactured CW cap box (no wool and no pick). I believe the M1881 holster is a second pattern with the medium loop (3.5 inches). It still has the S&W and C lettering to identify which hole to use on the inside of the flap. The belt has DCL and JWB inspector initials and is identified with 5 CAV the letter F and #3. I believe this to be 5 Cavalry, Company F, Rack #3 (soldier). I consider this to be one of my better cavalry rigs.

 

Question: how do you tell the difference between a M1872 and M1874 US belt plate? 

 

1880s hunting knife

 

Telescope (not sure of the date of the scope). It is an original and I have seen these listed as CW but I doubt it. Any info would be appreciated.

 

M1878 canteen and thin leather strap

 

M1883 quartermaster sergeant's sack coat (I think). However, like my engineer's sack coat, I believe this coat was manufactured in early 1890. It has the one left inside pocket, This coat has eagle buttons (D, Evans on the back) with the C inside but 2 of the sleeve buttons are NGP (penn arsenal on the back) and one is an eagle button with the C. Does anyone know why this coat would have a mix of US army and State buttons? 

 

A forage cap (kepi). Not sure of the model or date. Any opinions?

 

Reproduction carbine sling with original CW snap (OB North, New Haven C maker)

 

Cavalry gauntlets. I purchased these as cavalry trooper gauntlets. I think they are original but could use some pointers on how to tell. I know they are not regulation. This means they are private purchase. They are well used on have a significant crease (fold) in the middle from being tucked in the waist over the belt.

 

 

 

 

[manayunkman]

Another very nice group.

 

Anything on the telescope?

[utica3]

Hello Manayunkman,

 

There are no markings or maker identification on the telescope, Still works. It is very similar to the one Kevin Costner uses in the buffalo scene in Dancers with Wolfs 

 

Eric

[manayunkman]

Eric, it has the look of a late 1800s piece but it could also be early 1900s.

 

Nothing in the eyepiece or etched in the brass?

 

Peter

[utica3]

Hello Peter (manayunkman), 

 

I looked again at the outside of the telescope. I did find the word France on the lens cap. That's all I can find. I added a couple of more pictures.

 

Eric

[BlueBookGuy]

hello,

my cavalry gloves look very similar to yours apart from lack of decorative stitching on wristlets' either side. I think yours are genuine and from non-military issuance, but the basic design was long known since decades. I've got 5 - 6 pairs of riding gloves of different patterns, and for example one CW original pair from 1862 mfg. still in good shape could be called identical to the 1884 - 1889 pattern gauntlets  -   virtually no differencies.

Who knows how many variations in color, material and minor variations in design could have jumped out in those years.

Here some pics of mine, I've got two different pairs of riding gauntlets of civilian make  -   these below look similar to yours in design, color and interior's method of stitching.

 

 

 

 

 

here for comparison, another pair with a different method for the wristlets.

 

[rayg]

Nice period display, Ray

[BlueBookGuy]

hello again,

just as small contribution, final photos on my part. A mixed display, quite much behind your highly specialized sets in each respective cathegory (wonderfully represented in your topics, again my compliments). Here some elements from both Cavalry and Infantry ranging from a 1868 Sharps carbine and contemporary riding gauntlets with longer cuffs, to a pair 1890 blouses  -   Cavalry Corporal and Infantry Sergeant.

Sharps carbine was supposed to be a former Model 1863 but after some deeper researching it turned out as one of the very very last Model 1859 to be altered to 50-70 ammos. Schofield revolver (2nd Model) in very early 5,000 s/n range is one of the very first of these revolvers to show the dual patent markings on right side of barrel's block.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[utica3]

Hello Franco,

 

Very nice display.  Your weapons are very rare. The Fair Weather Christian cartridge belt at the bottom is special and a one of a kind frontier belt. I don't have any firearms except for a 38 Colt DA to display with my collection. Kudos to you. I focused too much on belt rigs. I have quite few of them and cannot seem to sell any to buy a few period firearms. Thanks for viewing my posts and your kind words.

 

Eric

 

 

[BlueBookGuy]

Eric

I do not think you've focused excessively on the belts/ammo belts matter, at least you've got at the moment a stunning collection of them.  As for the firearms we can say many of them  are constantly out there waiting for new owners. models like the Trapdoors carbines of early to mid-1880s aren't scarce at all and command honest prices still being in great shape.

Revolvers are another matter, at least here in Europe the original govt-issued Colt SAAs are out of dreams (and, not to speak of prices). Schofields too, are less than scarce and only by a stroke of luck I've found this one at less than fifty kilometers from me...  seller is also a gunshop owner with a passion for these things, and agreed having it kept aside for me through 6 - 7 months if I recall correct before paying in full (equivalent of about USD 2,990 three years ago).

At lest it's a super-condition Schofield.  The same seller also had for sale a martial SAA in good shape, about mid-1886 and 100% original but at Euros 20,000 if I'm not wrong (USD 17,000) it was more than out of matter. 

 

[CAC1901]

Fun stuff. You've got the pattern dates on most of the equipment right. My favorite is the regimental stamped belt. Love that stuff. Theres no difference between the so called 1872 & 74 belt plates. The canteen has the 1898 pattern Rock Island US stencil on the cover. Some of these are on older canteen bodies. A few words on the kepi and coat. I collected uniforms for decades starting back in the 1970's and have owned hundreds of 5 button sacks, examined many more, and did a lot of research on them, shared the same, and much of it got eventually published.  I can't see the inside of the kepi (forage cap) but from the exterior it has the bound brim which shows up in the 1889 QM specs. The buttons are of course staff buttons.  Hard to say what it may be without more.  These things were made for decades by a number of uniformers of the period and practically every state guardsmen had them too. The 5 button has post Span Am War characteristics and likely Natl Guard or privately made i..e. not a pre-Span Am Army Quartermaster made / issued. Jean cloth type lining, shape and cut is a tad off etc.  It may have been for the Penn NG and someone at one point added officers Cavalry 'C' buttons which wouldn't likely be on an enlistedmans coat to begin with. I could write a disseration on these coats. QM made 1890 pattern coats are readily identifiable and have consistent characteristics; an 1890-91 one is literally indistinguishable from an 1897-98 one. After that little changes crept in. True pre-war ones are exceptionally scarce, few survived the 1898 war issuance as QM's raided every existing supply and exhausted them before anyone even boarded a boat to Cuba or the PI, as they let huge contracts for hundreds of thousands to be made - many times over than were ever made from 1891 to 1898. Most all existing 5 buttons are either a) post Span Am war QM examples, b) Span Am contracts, or c) private uniform companies that made these for the myriad of users of the era. Long time ago the private made stuff, being hard to sell, could be gussied up with the plentiful surplus US regulation buttons and voila; saleable. A bonus was adding the (still available) surplus unissued chevrons. Just like the 1881 dress helmets out there....good news is they are made of legit and period / original parts and look great. The enlisted QM issue gauntlets have a distinct loop or scalloped stitch pattern around the stitched rectangle on the cuffs. Gauntlets like boots were made by a lot of entities and used by a lot of people then, so old ones turn up that look close to military examples. Thank goodness too. For the military display they look the part and age.