Odd black LBV

[Nkomo]

I won this on Ebay a couple of weeks ago. The seller had it listed as a used Blackhawk vest, however the picture he had posted in the auction didn't look like Blackhawk. I could see a small OD tag in the back of it that looked reminiscent of the tags I have seen on the US woodland camo LBV's of the 1990's. The seller had it listed for an opening bid of $15. I took a gamble and picked up a very interesting vest.

 

The first thing I noticed when I received the vest was that is an identical copy of the US LBV vest. The pockets are the same dimensions and the sewing stitches are identical. The only difference is that the color on this is black. Unfortunately, the tag has been washed/worn out, so reading the specefic nomenclature is impossible. The material is identical to the material you see from the early AWS blcak pouches and vests. Also, the ITW Nexus/Fastex buckles are dated April of 1992. The chest straps appear to have had duct tape (100 MPH tape) on them at one time. You will find a lot of SF gear dated from the 1986 to 1995 time period in this black color. From what I understand, the SF community was upgrading and experimenting with new designs during that time period. I think this may be one of those designs. Anyone have any ideas or thoughts on this item? Thanks in advance!

Arch

[Nkomo]

More pics.

[Nkomo]

Last picture of magazine pouch.

[Nkomo]

The fabric used on this vest is similar to the ones used on these chest rigs (also from the 1990's time period).

[Nkomo]

Forgot the back picture.

[taucco]

American body amor and H&S made them in black for sure. Plus Blackhawk, Eagle Industries, etc...

 

H&S manufacturing, maybe? looks very similar to mine.

 

Mine is tan color, dated 1989, the only thing that makes me doubtful is the long tag, that is different.

 

 

Maybe it was made by AWS itself. They made some (very different from this) LBVs for Usaf Combat Controllers Team some time ago.

[Mercenary25]

Is it possible someone would dye LBV into black? That is my first thought when I saw pictures. Note threads color on the vest appeared to be off. It seemed to be OD? Sometimes when dye doesn't catch threads.

[hawkdriver]

SWAT, Cop, Militia, Wanna-be commandos, the list is endless.

[Philip]

Is it possible someone would dye LBV into black? That is my first thought when I saw pictures. Note threads color on the vest appeared to be off. It seemed to be OD? Sometimes when dye doesn't catch threads.

this was my guess too.

[AndrewA74]

I'd say dyed black for military usage. You can see on same places what looks like a green coming through. But, if they did dye it, why isn't the tag black? IF (which is doubtful) it was used by SWAT, militia, etc, why would it be the same measurements as a military one and such good quality? I'd like to see some SWAT proof too, because you can't just write something off as nothing without proof.

Andrew

[hawkdriver]

I'd say dyed black for military usage..... IF (which is doubtful) it was used by SWAT, militia, etc, why would it be the same measurements as a military one and such good quality? I'd like to see some SWAT proof too, because you can't just write something off as nothing without proof.

 

???? A black vest doubtfully used by SWAT/cop, but obviously accepted as military? Why would it be the same measurments as a military one? The cops have been wearing military gear for a long time. The Kevlar helmets they wear were military at one time, then vendors found a market and sell them Kevlar look alikes. Their key trademark color is black. The fact is that there is a teeny tiny group in the military that uses "black" stuff. These guys have more money than God. Why would they waste their time sitting around a metal tub of RIT dying equipment when they can get online with a Government IMPAC card and have it delivered to their door. I just sold a three color Interceptor vest to a cop. He took the ballistic panels out and bought a Interceptor cover from a police vendor and put the panels into it. By the logic being used in this thread, that vest must now have been used by military SF operators because the quality is to good for cops.

[Nkomo]

Thanks for the comments. I can see where it looks like the vest has been dyed black, but I don't think so. NOW, I do believe that the nylon trimming has been dyed black. As a matter of fact, I think that the nylon trimming and the straps on top were dyed black before the vest was assembled. The vest has not been dyed since it was sewn together. I say this for a couple of reasons:

1. The tag isn't black; it is still a green color.

2. The fabric that makes up the body of the vest is made from a black material. There is no camouflage pattern to it and it doesn't appear to be a black over-dye from OD.

 

That being said, I don't think it is a SWAT or police piece. It is manufactured from the same material that the early 90's SF gear is made of and the date of it certainly fits into that time period. It could be SWAT, Cop, Militia, or Wanna-be-commandos. However, handling as many SF vests, mag pouches, etc. from the early 90's as I have; I really don't think it is.

Arch

[Mercenary25]

Not to mention also Hollywood loves to use black LBVs, in movie "The Professional" for instance.

 

But for some reason, this LBV vest reminded me of Delta Force during 80's-90's period. I've seen photos of Delta Force operators worn full black gear, they used ABA and BHI when they were most common, however I didn't see any LBV, but you never know.

[Nkomo]

Hawk,

What I think Andrew meant was that he has never seen officers wearing back LBV vests that early in the 1990's. From my own experience, I haven't seen police offers/SWAT wearing the black LBV's until the mid to late 1990's time period. I am in total agreement that the police wear black gear as their trademark. However this vest has the same feel and weight of fabric as the pictures of the chest rigs I posted n this topic. These chest rigs came straight out of the Ft. Campbell DRMO auctions in the mid-to-late 90's. I do believe that the tag in the back of the vest is US military as well.

 

The black vests and chest rigs that the SF guys were testing in the 1990's was of sub-standard quality. You always find these pieces with rips, tears, snags, velcro coming undone, etc. The vest I own also has some rips and tears. The material it was made of was not high enough quality for their purposes. That is why I think most of the black gear was parceled out at the DRMO's in the 90's. Again, you will see the military black gear with Nexus fasteners dated from 1986-1995 time period. This LBV falls into the latter side of those dates. I just don't see officers receiving a military LBV in that time period. This vest was made black, not dyed with RIT dye.

Arch

[Mercenary25]

Notice the difference between this LBV to common black LBV you can find in military surplus stores (which usually is used by hollywood, militias, wannabes, etc...). Nkomo's LBV appeared to be well-used and salty. It has different color thread. Which made me to believe it is legit. I apologize for low quality picture but that is all I can find on google.

[CamoDeafie]

Well, unlike the cheap knoc-off/copies of the LBVs, I'd say what Arch have is military tested vest, not police, since after 1995ish+, most police used belt rigs and suspenders before going to tac vests, and when they did go to tac vests, it was either BlackHawk type or ABA type from what I can recall of the magazines (LEO/police magazines)

[MattD]

Arch Nice snag

 

Definitely an AWS item.

 

Like you said look at material and the way it is made.

 

At one time AWS was "Arnold's Welding Specialties", they just changed their name to "Advanced Warfare Solutions" in the last couple years.

 

They made lots of stuff that was "black"-for the "Shock Effect"

[hawkdriver]

There are a lot of presumtive assumptions being made on this vest so that "we" can hope that it is SF. The fact that cops didn't wear this kind of gear that long ago, wrong assumption, I was flying the counter drug program in the late eighties and I can tell you that they did, I have pictures of it. I also have pictures of myself wearing the black armored vest that the 160th later picked up for thier armor. Cops are pretty savy at getting thier hands on gear early in it's production cycle if they want it and have the budget for it.

I've shopped DRMO for years and can tell you that just because something walks out the door of DRMO, doesn't mean it was military promulgated. There is a lot of equipment that is bought for the purposes of OPFOR, civilian security, and other useages, that doesn't mean it's military. I've seen black coveralls come out of DRMO that were bought from a company to replicate OPFOR armor crewmen. The coveralls had military looking tags sewn in them, didn't mean they were military.

We have been rather dismissive that this vest could even possibly be LEA, yet accept it as military out of hand because of a date on a buckle? There is absolutely no chance that the buckles could have been sitting in a bin for say five years before being used in the manufacture of this vest? Can any of us imagine this argument if this was a M1 helmet? This thread would have died long before it made it to 17 posts.

Maybe it is SF, I'll quit raining on the parade.

[Nkomo]

Arch Nice snag

 

Definitely an AWS item.

 

Like you said look at material and the way it is made.

 

At one time AWS was "Arnold's Welding Specialties", they just changed their name to "Advanced Warfare Solutions" in the last couple years.

 

They made lots of stuff that was "black"-for the "Shock Effect"

Matt,

Thanks for the information.

Arch

[Nkomo]

There are a lot of presumtive assumptions being made on this vest so that "we" can hope that it is SF. The fact that cops didn't wear this kind of gear that long ago, wrong assumption, I was flying the counter drug program in the late eighties and I can tell you that they did, I have pictures of it. I also have pictures of myself wearing the black armored vest that the 160th later picked up for thier armor. Cops are pretty savy at getting thier hands on gear early in it's production cycle if they want it and have the budget for it.

I've shopped DRMO for years and can tell you that just because something walks out the door of DRMO, doesn't mean it was military promulgated. There is a lot of equipment that is bought for the purposes of OPFOR, civilian security, and other useages, that doesn't mean it's military. I've seen black coveralls come out of DRMO that were bought from a company to replicate OPFOR armor crewmen. The coveralls had military looking tags sewn in them, didn't mean they were military.

We have been rather dismissive that this vest could even possibly be LEA, yet accept it as military out of hand because of a date on a buckle? There is absolutely no chance that the buckles could have been sitting in a bin for say five years before being used in the manufacture of this vest? Can any of us imagine this argument if this was a M1 helmet? This thread would have died long before it made it to 17 posts.

Maybe it is SF, I'll quit raining on the parade.

Hawk,

I never dismissed this vest as being LEA. I was stating that it is made from the same material as other known SF examples from the 80's/90's time period. I merely stated that it matches closely other black experimental SF items in my collection. As to who used it, we may never know. It is a nicely made vest and I posted it for other members to view. I truly appreciate everyone who takes the time to post on my threads and help me identify my items. I certainly don't know everything and never said I did. Unlike M1 helmets or WW2 uniforms, information on SF gear from the 1980's and 1990's is very limited. There are no books that I am aware of that do an in-depth study from that time period. If you wouldn't mind, I'd love to see the pictures you mentioned. I sometimes will print off the pictures and discussions on this thread for reference material.

Arch

[hawkdriver]

I will do that for you, but only with the ones that are of the equipment that I wore because I don't have permission of the other guys and I no longer know where they are and some are still LEA.

[Nkomo]

I will do that for you, but only with the ones that are of the equipment that I wore because I don't have permission of the other guys and I no longer know where they are and some are still LEA.

Sounds good!

Arch

[battlerattle]

looks to be a H&S TLBV

[battlerattle]

looks to be a H&S TLBV

[12A54]

It doesn't look like BlackHawk (I work for BH), but it's pretty old and could be. I can check some archived catalogs to see. (Stitching doesn't look like ours - we double needle stitch all trim tape, but it might be an older style that may have done that.) I assure you that black was and is still in demand by military units both in the US and internationally.