TheGoose Posted July 12, 2021 Share #1 Posted July 12, 2021 I love the little details on this one! The patina, wear on the crown of the shell, and bent in bail tell me this set saw a lot of use during the war. Shell is a late 1942 McCord fixed bail with a heat stamp of 322A. Blue paint splatter matches the blue in the painted insignia. Yellow paint has worn off from the tac sign onto the shell which tells me this is a matched set. Liner is a mid-war CAPAC with painted armored insignia, captain bars, yellow dot tac sign, and the soldier’s laundry number: C-4296. It appears that the soldier applied tape to the painted insignia which is now gone. I've been an M1 collector my whole, but I have a few questions beyond my knowledge: 1. Has anyone seen the yellow tac sign before? It is only on the left side. Yellow with a thin black border. 2. Has anyone seen this specific style of painted armored insignia before? I think the blue paint spatter points to the idea that many were painted at once. 3. Why was the armored division number omitted? I think the wear on the helmet and lack of any instructor signs would rule out armor training school. 4. Do any armored divisions have rosters? There can't be too many captains with a C-4296 laundry number associated with an armored division. 5. Any other info helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsbody Posted July 12, 2021 Share #2 Posted July 12, 2021 Great helmet! I think it's a second armored corps helmet though. The insignia on the front of the liner looks that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoose Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share #3 Posted July 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Dogsbody said: Great helmet! I think it's a second armored corps helmet though. The insignia on the front of the liner looks that way. Thanks! I am not seeing a 2nd Armored Corps anywhere on Google. And do you have photos of similar liners that made you think it is from the 2nd Armored Corps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsbody Posted July 12, 2021 Share #4 Posted July 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, TheGoose said: Thanks! I am not seeing a 2nd Armored Corps anywhere on Google. And do you have photos of similar liners that made you think it is from the 2nd Armored Corps? It reminded me of the second armored corps patch. Besides the asn number for officers usually start with an O. And last: captain insignia's usually have the two bars connected. Unfortunately I don't have any examples of II corps liners. Even if i'm completely wrong in my assumptions it's still a great set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoose Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share #5 Posted July 12, 2021 13 minutes ago, Dogsbody said: It reminded me of the second armored corps patch. Besides the asn number for officers usually start with an O. And last: captain insignia's usually have the two bars connected. Unfortunately I don't have any examples of II corps liners. Even if i'm completely wrong in my assumptions it's still a great set. I found the patch. I can definitely see what you're saying. It looks like the II Armored Corps was renamed shortly after this liner was made, so I am not 100% sold on it. I'll do some digging and see what I can find! Thanks for the help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavalryCombatant Posted July 12, 2021 Share #6 Posted July 12, 2021 No comment on the unit, but I’m absolutely in love with the armored insignia, actually the liner as a whole. Gorgeous setup, there’s just something about it. CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmar836 Posted July 12, 2021 Share #7 Posted July 12, 2021 Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoose Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share #8 Posted July 12, 2021 12 minutes ago, CavalryCombatant said: No comment on the unit, but I’m absolutely in love with the armored insignia, actually the liner as a whole. Gorgeous setup, there’s just something about it. CC Thank you so much! eBay still has some gems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted July 15, 2021 Share #9 Posted July 15, 2021 I think it is Captain Bars. It was pretty common just to put bars, in fact the painting of the bars as connected like the metal insignia was probably less common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted July 15, 2021 Share #10 Posted July 15, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted July 15, 2021 Share #11 Posted July 15, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted July 15, 2021 Share #12 Posted July 15, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted July 15, 2021 Share #13 Posted July 15, 2021 This Captain will be in one of the many Separate Tank Battalions in the war, ETO would be my first guess, Separate Tank Battalions assigned to the GHQ and attached as needed to the Infantry Division, most of them for awhile. These Separate Tank Battalions wore the Armored Forces Shoulder patch, if they were with a division a long time they might wear the division's shoulder patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoose Posted July 15, 2021 Author Share #14 Posted July 15, 2021 8 hours ago, patches said: This Captain will be in one of the many Separate Tank Battalions in the war, ETO would be my first guess, Separate Tank Battalions assigned to the GHQ and attached as needed to the Infantry Division, most of them for awhile. These Separate Tank Battalions wore the Armored Forces Shoulder patch, if they were with a division a long time they might wear the division's shoulder patch. Thank you so much, patches!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoose Posted July 15, 2021 Author Share #15 Posted July 15, 2021 8 hours ago, patches said: This Captain will be in one of the many Separate Tank Battalions in the war, ETO would be my first guess, Separate Tank Battalions assigned to the GHQ and attached as needed to the Infantry Division, most of them for awhile. These Separate Tank Battalions wore the Armored Forces Shoulder patch, if they were with a division a long time they might wear the division's shoulder patch. Do any rosters of these battalions exist? I feel like there would probably be only one captain with that laundry number in the separate tank battalions. Additionally, I know the helmet came out of Virginia. Any tips for how to research? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted July 15, 2021 Share #16 Posted July 15, 2021 4 hours ago, TheGoose said: Do any rosters of these battalions exist? I feel like there would probably be only one captain with that laundry number in the separate tank battalions. Additionally, I know the helmet came out of Virginia. Any tips for how to research? There were literally dozens of separate tank battalions, most in the ETO. You would have to do an individual search of each battalion to see if the battalion has a roster posted online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmar836 Posted July 15, 2021 Share #17 Posted July 15, 2021 I have a printed history of my uncle's unit - the 738th TB. They were a mine sweeping unit but did many things. The unit history tells when and to whom they were attached for certain actions - 2nd armored, 9th armored, etc. Without the unit, that might make this a needle in a haystack unless you find the vet. I would keep the 2 Armored Corp door open just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted July 16, 2021 Share #18 Posted July 16, 2021 The way I view it is that this unit the II Armored Corps was redesignated the XIX Corps in October 1943 back in the states, and this was their shoulder patch, with a Black Roman Numeral in the apex, that some guy painted two Thick White bars close together on his helmet to signify a Roman Numeral 2, because he was in say the HQ of II Armored Corps seems if I may, a stretch., remembering that only the Staff and Headquarters Companies, and those combat units, read Corps Artillery, and the other combat support and support units designated as Corps Troops would of worn the Corp patch, and II Armored Corps may have had little in the way of these corps troops when it was active. No my feeling is this is a liner for a Captain in one of the Separate Tank Battalions, and that Yellow disc is some kind of inter Battalion TAC Mark, probably a Company TAC Mark, the companies therein having different colors, Yellow say Company B, Red HQ Company. Plus this fashion of painting shoulder patches on liners and steel helmet shells either on the front or on the sides is more in keeping with something seen overseas in late 43, more into 1944 then stateside really, as is the painting of officer rank sometimes front and center of the painted shoulder patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmar836 Posted July 16, 2021 Share #19 Posted July 16, 2021 Can’t argue with that, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoose Posted July 16, 2021 Author Share #20 Posted July 16, 2021 14 hours ago, patches said: The way I view it is that this unit the II Armored Corps was redesignated the XIX Corps in October 1943 back in the states, and this was their shoulder patch, with a Black Roman Numeral in the apex, that some guy painted two Thick White bars close together on his helmet to signify a Roman Numeral 2, because he was in say the HQ of II Armored Corps seems if I may, a stretch., remembering that only the Staff and Headquarters Companies, and those combat units, read Corps Artillery, and the other combat support and support units designated as Corps Troops would of worn the Corp patch, and II Armored Corps may have had little in the way of these corps troops when it was active. No my feeling is this is a liner for a Captain in one of the Separate Tank Battalions, and that Yellow disc is some kind of inter Battalion TAC Mark, probably a Company TAC Mark, the companies therein having different colors, Yellow say Company B, Red HQ Company. Plus this fashion of painting shoulder patches on liners and steel helmet shells either on the front or on the sides is more in keeping with something seen overseas in late 43, more into 1944 then stateside really, as is the painting of officer rank sometimes front and center of the painted shoulder patch. I agree! I explored the idea of 2nd Armored Corps but the timeline didn't seem to work based on when the liner was manufactured (mid 1943-mid 1944). I will be doing as much as I can to find out more about this set and I will definitely keep you guys in the loop! Thank you both so much for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GITom1944 Posted July 19, 2021 Share #21 Posted July 19, 2021 Quote 1. Has anyone seen the yellow tac sign before? It is only on the left side. Yellow with a thin black border. The plain armor insignia might also mean the helmet was used by a branch-qualified officer that was not assigned to a numbered tank unit, such as cadre at a training post in the U.S. I have a stateside engineer officer's helmet that has a dark red circle around the liner chinstrap rivet on the left side. I always assumed this was related to the branch of service color but that was always a guess. Since yellow is the branch of service color for Armor, that might be its significance. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoose Posted July 19, 2021 Author Share #22 Posted July 19, 2021 42 minutes ago, GITom1944 said: The plain armor insignia might also mean the helmet was used by a branch-qualified officer that was not assigned to a numbered tank unit, such as cadre at a training post in the U.S. I have a stateside engineer officer's helmet that has a dark red circle around the liner chinstrap rivet on the left side. I always assumed this was related to the branch of service color but that was always a guess. Since yellow is the branch of service color for Armor, that might be its significance. Tom The only examples of the circle I have seen from fellow M1 collectors have been a dark red and blue. Do you have a photo of your liner? I don't think there is any chance this is a stateside helmet due to the heavy wear seen on both the shell and liner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GITom1944 Posted July 20, 2021 Share #23 Posted July 20, 2021 Quote Do you have a photo of your liner? Here is my helmet & liner. I had been going from memory, I hadn't looked at this one in awhile. I'm glad you asked for a pic. It turns out the red circle was the same on both sides of the liner. Forgive the background... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GITom1944 Posted July 20, 2021 Share #24 Posted July 20, 2021 Quote I don't think there is any chance this is a stateside helmet due to the heavy wear seen on both the shell and liner. You may be right. My statement above was too absolute. I suspect that when the liner was worn without the steel shell the circle might indicate the branch of service of its wearer. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddyd00 Posted July 20, 2021 Share #25 Posted July 20, 2021 7 hours ago, GITom1944 said: Here is my helmet & liner. I had been going from memory, I hadn't looked at this one in awhile. I'm glad you asked for a pic. It turns out the red circle was the same on both sides of the liner. Forgive the background... NIce Set! ... Feels good to take certain ones out after awhile when in the mood. I have limited space so I only have 8 or so on display and the rest I have to stow. Don't put it in the washer Tom! Haha Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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