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Help with Naval Aviator Wings Question


Daytonian777
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Daytonian777

Hello everyone! I am not really familiar with Naval wings (mostly USAF) and have a question regarding these wings. Are they genuine? The reason I ask is they are marked V.H.B. which I found out is Blackington, but I have not run across this mark on any known wings made by them, only a medal. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Naval wings.jpg

Naval wings II.jpg

Naval wings III.jpg

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they made so many variations of these wings during the wars but your lucky if you find them with hall marks, i can say with confidents that this is a post war and a good one at that.

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The Rooster

I beg to differ.

Those are pre war or early war Navy wings.

 Little Feathers not berries.

And WW2 wings are most always found with company hallmarks.

Its the norm for ww2 navy wings.

Not the exception.

Pre war or early war.

What do the posts look like under the clutches ?

Soldered or electro welded ?

 

Those are post war clutches but that dont mean a thing as people use them on old wings when they dont have the originals.

 

The tell is how the posts are attached.

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The Rooster

They look WW2 to me. But it would be good to see the backside without the clutches

and get a look at the pins. Im not familiar with that hallmark though.

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Just to add my own quibble...  In my opinion, these are WWII vintage (not pre or post war... but smack dab in the middle of the war).  There were no lines drawn on a calendar where you can say... pre or post war (in general).  The "berries" were adopted in the early 40's and some USN aviator wings had more or less "berry-like" wings.  There was also a fair amount of overlap, as some companies continued to sell "non-berry" patterns well into WWII.  I think that by the KW (for the most part) USN aviator wings came much more standardized and you stop seeing the non-berry patterns disappear from pilot's groupings.  So other than having an autobiographical wing or one that someone kindly engraved a date on the back, it is probably to much to postulate a date.  On the other hand, what a great wing this one is!1

 

VHB is a rare hallmark to find, as the more common (which is also rather rare) Blackinton hallmark is a tad less tough to find (I have seen them both excised and incised).  Although I suspect that a fair number of Blackinton wings were actually made by the company during WWII, just that most of them are not marked as such.  I suspect that a lot of Blackinton's business may have been making whole sale badges for sale by other companies (such as Morrie Luxenberg).  They also probably had a mail order system and maybe stocked some PXs or other uniform supply companies.

 

Blackinton used a few hallmarks during the this time period, including the hallmark VHB and well as Sterling By Blackinton.  VHB is a rarer hallmarking that is for sure, but I have a few commercial airline wings from this time period that were marked VHB. 


That being said, it is a WONDERFUL wing.  I cannot tell if these are the "shirt size" or the regular size wings?  My experience is that the smaller size wings are more common--again, relatively speaking, than the larger wings.

 

All in all, I think you have a small gem there!

 

There are a couple of examples on Bob's great site:

 

http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usnavy/pilot/presleynavyblackinton.shtml

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Daytonian777

Thank you all for your replies! I wanted to consult the stellar collective knowledge of USMF before purchasing these, as I know VERY little about USN wings. Upon @pfrost's glowing praise of these I began to question the ultra reasonable price, that is if these are a rarer find. I searched the seller's completed listings, and it seems that he has sold numerous examples of USN wings with the VHB stamp. Does this mean that they are EXTREMELY well made reproductions, or were they purchased in a uniform shop/supplier going out of business situation? I meticulously compared the WW2Wings example that was listed, and they are perfectly matched. Did Blackington ever do restrikes like N.S. Meyer? I am intrigued if these are fakes or if this seller has a cache of new-old stock that he doesn't realize the worth. Thank you for any additional answers!

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Its always possible someone added the hallmarks, but nothing that I can see makes me think that is case in this situation.  I believe that Blackington did make restrikes in the 80's for collectors.  There may be some threads about that if you do a search.

 

Here is a suggestion... don't look a gift horse in the mouth!  I can tell stories about situations where someone talked themselves out of a great buy because they were facing a situation that was to good to be true.... and it was true... and they missed out.  Happens to us all, but I always ask myself... is the price low enough that even if the worst is true and it IS a fake, will I have to sell the family dog to the debt collector?  Can I live with myself if they turn out to be fake or reproductions or restrikes?  How well do they compare to other examples that I believe are good.  Then I decide if I want it and if I can live with any of the possible negative consequences.  I have learned that helps me avoid having to go to the bottle of tums all the time.  The best advice is to ALWAYS buy the item and not the story... even stories you may build up in your own head.  AND only buy what you like, not what other people say you should like.


At the end of the day, collect for yourself and buy what you like at the price that you think is fair.  Its your collection!  But if they were not terribly over priced (and my range is very cheap but around 30-40$), I would buy them.  If they were less than that, I would buy 3-4.  USN aviator wings just don't have the built in value that USAAF wings carry.  A VHB marked USAAF pilot wing would probably sell north of 100-200$ all day... not so sure that a USN aviator wing would reach those values.  But you never know.

But I am not a dealer and I find myself rather ambivalent about their needs and motivations.  Plus my collecting style is to try to find things as cheaply as I can (in general).

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Daytonian777

@pfrost I greatly appreciate the stellar advice and information that you always provide! I have only been collecting for 3 years, so I generally am a bit gun-shy about wings that I'm unsure of. I try to always be as thrifty as possible because my collecting budget is not what I wish it was currently. I tend to stick to USAAF wings, but if a good deal on USN wings pop up I wouldn't turn it down if it is a legitimate example. Regarding the VHB wings, the silver pair that I initially posted sold that night, but I was able to acquire a gold toned pair that had the same marking for the same price. I will update this post when I receive them, concerning if the posts are soldered or electro welded. Thank you once again!

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I  do enjoy to pontificate!  I recognize that I am blow hard, but a happy, good natured blow hard when it comes to wings!  LOL.  I like them, I think you probably did well.

 

P

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The Rooster

Curiosity got the better of me and so I ordered one of the many of these 9.99 wings sold by this ebay dealer.

And you get what you pay for. It may be antique? As anything over 25 years old is technically an antique. But its not I dont believe

made by blackington and I dont believe its ww2. But for 10 bucks its a decent place holder. The metal what ever it is is soft and pliable and after bending it for the one pic,

I bent it right back. I think its a novelty fake wing.

Why the VHB ???

I dont know, to fool people ??

 

Those pins and the overall look and feel of it make me think novelty wing.

And they all have that same scratch on the back.

Not a real Navy Wing.

In my opinion.

DSCF4093.JPG

DSCF4094.JPG

DSCF4096.JPG

DSCF4097.JPG

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Rooster, thank you for your efforts to delve deeper into the LGB hallmarked myster Aviator wing.  It appears to bend like cheap potmetal? 

 

We're all familiar with the "Sterling By Blackinton" hallmark when silver is present in their badge... And during WWII, they also hallmarked a few of their brass-struck gilt-plated and silver-plated aerial badges with a seldom seen three line mark, with the initials "V.H." on the top line; the name "Blackinton" in the center; and the abbreviation "CO." (Company) on the third line.  

 

I've only seen the "V.H. Blackinton Co." hallmark on their Flight Surgeon and Flight Nurse aerial badges. Have you, or any of our other members seen it stamped on any other ratings?

Attached are examples of a silver and gilt Flight Surgeon badges with the other known Blackinton WWII era hallmark.

 

Rooster, thanks for posting another interesting post!

      

VHB Flt Surgeon C.jpg

VHB Hallmark 3.jpg

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Daytonian777

@The Rooster I also received the pair I ordered. The ones I received had a lot of flashing, some pitting indicating a casting and only weighed 9 grams! I wonder if these were made to sell to kids at militaria shows? I guess the case is closed on these, but hopefully this thread serves to guide people away from these USN wings. For $10.00 it is not the end of the world. I just personally prefer to apply my resources toward genuine examples. Thank you to all who helped figure out my question!

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Sorry fellas, I guess I steered you wrong on this one.  In my defense, from what I could see, I did like them.  But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and a cheap wing is just a cheap wing!  In any case, you all shouldn't pay any attention to me, I know less then most of you...  But as I said, for 10$ and a return policy, I would have probably taken a shot at it.  USN wings aren't that rare and this very well may have been a souvenir type item made for cheap sale by Blackinton.  You can always go check the Blackinton site, they still offer all types of things for sale.  In any case, I apologize for any misinformation I may have imparted, but from what I could see, I liked them!

 

But the VHB  (V. H. B.) hallmark does exist.  I have some Transcontinental Western Airlines INC wings that date from the time period of 1935-~1950 that are marked either sterling, Blanckinton or VHB (I got a bunch of them from a scrap dealer a few years ago).  This is also an image of some late 1960's vintage TWA wings, and one has the large V.H.B. hallmark like seen on the navy wings.  I found a couple of other VHB marked items here and there (on medals and other types of insignia0.  I can't hazard a paticularly educated guess if this particular hallmark is early or late, but my overall sense is that it may have been something used post WWII.

 

 

twa-airlines-pilot-wings-flight-hm_1_2bc87aa96b5011c2f3d590fac3f663b7.jpg

obsolete-marshals-service-bill-degan_1_d4803956a0913993309ebd87507bb885.jpg

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Ron Burkey has a nice USN badge that he says is from the 20's or 30's that is marked VH Blackinton.  But, I have no idea how accurate that is, but it seems reasonable.

1930srarecpohatbadgeblackrevclose.jpg

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Daytonian777

@pfrost No need to apologize! We are all in this learning process together! I always appreciate your extensive knowledge regarding wings. As you said, I didn't have to sell the family pet for these fake wings, no harm no foul LOL. 😋  I checked Blackinton's site that you mentioned and I see no sign of current production. They very well may have been a batch of novelty wings made for air shows or something similar. Once again, thanks for all of the info and help!

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  • 6 months later...

Not to re-open a can of worms on these badges but curiosity got the better of me so I decided to plunk down $10 just to check these out in hand.  I knew they were not a period wing but every once in a while I like to pick up a restrike or fake wing here or there if the price is right just to check them out and look at construction, etc.  I'm a huge fan of Blackinton made wings and the fact that the front of the wing is an authentic Blackinton pattern was what triggered me to buy one.  The one I purchased arrived from Foxboro, MA which is just down the street from where Blackinton is headquartered in Attleboro Falls, MA.  The construction isn't the quality of a true Blackinton wartime piece but much nicer than the piece of tin I was expecting.  The clutches on mine are slightly different than the one in the photos but, again, it's not a period piece.  If someone were looking for a representative wing for a display such as an art piece or something these would definitely be passable.  I tend to lean toward the theory that Blackinton actually did produce these badges but, as mentioned above, likely for sales at gift shops, air shows, etc.  I doubt the intended purpose was to pump a ton of these out to rip off collectors.  It is what it is, an authentic looking pattern from the front but a recent strike and not a wartime piece.  Good to be aware of things like these as they will still be showing up 30 years from now and by then the knowledge of what is real and what isn't may be harder to find.  

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