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.30 Cal Carbine dummy rounds -- WWII?


bldrhouse
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bldrhouse

not lot on the box, this is only printing and box is sealed so cannot look at cartridges

WWII?

 

Thanks,

 

z

 

image.png.471e4c86165106f4d6a2066600276812.png

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bldrhouse

thank you; I should have asked: are these USGI, or?  Have never seen a box marked with the manufacturer's name and no lot numbers.

 

z

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Charlie Flick

Yes, those Dummy cartridges are USGI and were indeed produced during WW2.  The cartridges are tin plated.  They have an empty primer pocket with no flash hole.  Most of the examples I have seen are headstamped WRA 43 or WRA 44.  (WRA = Winchester Repeating Arms.)  Your box is in very nice condition.

 

As to the absence of any Lot number, I have not seen any similar .30 Carbine Dummy Winchester boxes with Lot numbers.  I have not studied the issue but my guess is that it can be explained in this fashion.  Lot numbers serve primarily as a quality assurance mechanism.  It allows identification of production groups so that they can be isolated if necessary.  By that I mean that if ammunition in a given lot is found to be defective it can quickly be traced back to a given Lot and date and time of production.   In that manner defective cartridges can be located, removed and destroyed. 

 

The consequences of defective loaded ammunition are quite obvious.  On dummy ammunition those same consequences do not apply.  If a dummy cartridge has a defect what would it be and what are the consequences?  Not much.  Thus, in my view there would be no significant need to implement a Lot number system for dummy cartridges.   

 

Note that my thinking on this question is not universally applied.  I am aware of other USGI Dummy ammunition that has Lot numbers applied to the packaging.  For example, I have seen M1921 .45 ammo produced by the Evansville Ordnance Plant with Lot numbers.

 

Anyway, nice box.  Hope that bit of confirmatory info is helpful to you.

 

Regards,

Charlie

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bldrhouse

Charlie, thanks for your good response and info.  Yes, now that I think about it, no reason for dummies to have lot numbers.  

 

And, ironically enough, I actually just bought a box of M1921 Cal .45 dummies that have a lot number.

 

thanks again,

 

Zigy

1.jpg

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silverplate

During WWII there were two types of dummies made for the carbine, both by Winchester. Your example of M1 had the tinned case as Charlie mentioned, was made from 1942-1943, and had two variations on the carton label. These were followed in 1944 with the M13, which went back to brass cases. They all used a two piece carton with wrap-around paper label, and lot numbers seem to be present only on the M13. Here are examples from my collection of all 3 cartons with cartridges shown. The early tinned case really stands out.

WRA Carbine M13 Dummy.jpg

M1-M13 Compare.jpg

M1 Dummy Labels.jpg

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bldrhouse

Silverplate,

 

Thanks for your great info and the photos.

I am constantly amazed at the detail with which some USMF members are familiar.

 

Zigy

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hirsca

FWIW, here are some pictures of my shrinking collection of dummy ammo.  I started selling a couple of years ago.  I also have boxes of 30-06, .50 Cal., and .556 left.  No more .308.  The spam can of .45 dummies is unopened and weighs a ton.

 

Enjoy, Al

IMG_5119.JPG

IMG_5120.JPG

IMG_5121.JPG

IMG_5122.JPG

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Charlie Flick

Fabulous collection, Hirsca.  

 

Have you ever run across any USGI M917 9MM Dummy ammo?  I have been looking for a box for quite a while.

 

Regards,

Charlie

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hirsca
1 hour ago, Charlie Flick said:

Fabulous collection, Hirsca.  

 

Have you ever run across any USGI M917 9MM Dummy ammo?  I have been looking for a box for quite a while.

 

Regards,

Charlie

Thank you Charlie, this coming from you is a great honor.  And no, I have never come across a box of the M917 dummies.  I just checked all of my single rounds, but all are foreign dummies.  I will let you know if I find a box.  It will be yours.

 

Thanks again, Al

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hirsca

P.S.  Did you notice the cartridge nomenclature on the one box of .45 dummies (bottom row, left)?  It is marked M1911 instead of M1921.

 

Al

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silverplate

That carton on the lower left is a regular ball carton with a repack date, not a dedicated dummy carton, hence the difference in nomenclature (Pistol Ball, M1911 / Dummy, M1921). If it contains dummy rounds then it may have been reused.

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hirsca

Duh...my bad...you are absolutely correct.  Don't know how that box ended up with the dummy boxes.  Not recognizing that when I took the picture is just another clue to the aging process.  I'm 76.

 

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

Al

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silverplate

My eye aren't what they used to be either. Still, it's a nice carton with interesting markings.

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