Senior Observer Wing Badge

[donaldnol]

A nice pre war Senior Observer Wings badge i showed this to the AVIATION WINGS AND BADGE page they said it's was a very interesting piece

[ram957]

Interesting...I don't think I ever saw a pin marked Sterling .

[5thwingmarty]

I have one like this as well.  My pin isn't marked Sterling, but I have seen that before.  These would not be pre-war Sr. Observer wings as the rating wasn't established until 1943.

 

I had wondered if my wing was a one-off jeweler made wing or one that Amcraft actually made.  Seeing yours with the same type of star attached makes me lean towards it having been done by Amcraft.

 

[bschwartz]

1 hour ago, donaldnol said:

... i showed this to the AVIATION WINGS AND BADGE page they said it's was a very interesting piece

 

 

 

 

 

And I still do think it's an interesting piece.  The detailed star is really interesting.  Marty's wing has the more traditional Amcraft style pin that I'm used to seeing.  That's what I was talking about in our chat, Dan.  The pin on your wing is a different style.  Not that it's bad just that it's not the traditional Amcraft pin.  Senior observer badges from any maker are fairly rare IMHO.

[donaldnol]

49 minutes ago, 5thwingmarty said:

I have one like this as well.  My pin isn't marked Sterling, but I have seen that before.  These would not be pre-war Sr. Observer wings as the rating wasn't established until 1943.

 

I had wondered if my wing was a one-off jeweler made wing or one that Amcraft actually made.  Seeing yours with the same type of star attached makes me lean towards it having been done by Amcraft.

 

i thought i have seen these checkered stars before thats a nice piece you have there

[donaldnol]

53 minutes ago, bschwartz said:

 

And I still do think it's an interesting piece.  The detailed star is really interesting.  Marty's wing has the more traditional Amcraft style pin that I'm used to seeing.  That's what I was talking about in our chat, Dan.  The pin on your wing is a different style.  Not that it's bad just that it's not the traditional Amcraft pin.  Senior observer badges from any maker are fairly rare IMHO.

now i'm thinking it could be a jewelers piece?

[5thwingmarty]

I don't collect rank insignia, so I don't know if the "textured" stars are possibly from Amcraft or not.  I believe they refer to this style as being "false embroidery".  Someone had shared a pre-war Orber pattern pilot wing that was converted to a Military Airplane Pilot / Senior Pilot wing by attaching this style of star.

 

To echo Bob's statement too, Sr. Observers are tough to find from any maker (except for all the cloth ones on ebay).  2" Meyer examples seem to pop up pretty regularly, but 3" ones are extremely scarce.  I think I saw one genuine one at the last SOS.  I am wondering if any other forum members have examples of these Amcraft pattern Sr. Observers with this type of star attached?

[pfrost]

For what ever reason, observer wings of any era tend to be an order or two magnitude less common than pilot wings from the same era.  In WWI the observer wing was intended to be worn by non-pilot officers performing various flight duties (gunner, observation/photography etc).  During the interwar years, the observer badge was generally given to non-pilot aircrew and pilots who were "downgraded" (for lack of a better word) to observer rating due to medical or other condition that took them off of active pilot service. I believe that a pilot could be dual rated as both a pilot and an observer, but in that case, the uniform codes prescribed wearing the pilot badge. Thus, in general, the observer wings (if or when worn) seems to occur more frequently on senior officers who were not really flying--although I suspect that most of them would just continue to wear their pilot badges.   By the time WWII started, the newly named (but same pattern) observer ratings could be earned by a pilot/senior pilot/command/pilot who also had qualifications as an aerial gunner,  navigator or bombardier.  Serving in an observation/reconnaissance unit or being a graduate of the AAF Tactical School could also be enough to get you an observer rating.  But with the VAST influx of new personnel, the relative number of individuals who were rated as observers (and not as bombardiers or navigators) was very small.

 

Thus, in addition (apparently) to not being that popular, the actual number of personnel that would have rated an observer badge after WWI would have been relatively low.  Between the wars, the number of guys you see wearing observer badges (either in photos or as part of an autobiographical grouping) are very low -- and the few that I have seen actually worn, typically come out of more senior officer's estates and those guys who were associated with testing or training schools (or more senior command billets).  Again, that was probably more related to the general structure of the US Military during that time period. Their were simply not that many billets for pilots and the turn over was pretty robust--and guys who stuck around were probably more admin types. 

 

During WWII the vast influx of new AAF officers were entering the service and going to to attend and graduate from navigator/bombardier schools were much more likely to wear their specific badge rather that the "flying-anal orifice" badge.  You also had a relatively large number of guys who washed out of flight training at one stage or another and were rerouted to other duties. You rarely see WWII groupings with an observer badge (although it is seen sometimes) and often it appears almost as an orphan badge.  IIRC the qualifications for the Senior Observer badge was authorized in either 1940 or a bit later in 1942 (please correct me if I am wrong), but like the senior pilot ratings, most WWII trained observers would have been qualified to get the badge until at least 1944/45 once the war was running down.  As for previously rated observers prior to WWII starting, again, I suspect that those individuals would just have worn the more prestigious senior or command pilot wings.

 

Interestingly, after WWI, the USAAC brass in Washington seemed to have sat down and thought up a fair number of observer related wings (like the aeronaut observer, 1919-1921 observer 1/2 wing and pilot/observer ratings) that almost never show up in photographs or biographical groupings (but never say never).  Some of these badges, like the aeronaught observer (balloon observer) wing were probably all but obsolete by the mid-1920's but companies were still making them for sale up to WWII.

 

Not an exhaustive list, but NS Meyer, AE Co, the From Official Dies wings, W Link/AMCRAFT (either from Link's dies or their own), Kenney, etc probably all made observer wings prior to WWII.

 

During WWII, the number of observer wings that were available jumped as would have been expected.  NS Meyer, for example, seems to have made at least 4 versions of observer/senior observer wings (the type 1 pre war "slick" wings, the type 2 pelican beak wings, the type 2 with stars on stilts, and the type 2 with stars not on stilts--and maybe even a 5th version).  Also, the observer wing made a great general platform for all the other ratings.  So I suspect that many observer wings were not really made as observer wings, but rather as the base for gunner/bombardier/FS wings, etc.  I suspect you find WAY more old new stock of dead observer wings that just never got made into gunner wings than actual observer wings sold as such.

 

You will also see a fair number of "jeweler-made" badges in which the star was added (probably) after the initial purchase. That seems to be the majority of senior pilot wings.  But one could imagine a company offering a senior star addition.

 

In almost all those cases, I suspect that the modifications were made sometime towards the end or after WWII.  Which is what I suspect has happened with this wing.  To me, this is an AMCRAFT pattern wing that may not actually have been made by AMCRAFT.  My sense is that later in the war (and into the KW time period), the AMCRAFT pattern was either copied or the dies were sold to other companies (like Dondero) which produced a very similar wing into post war time periods.  It is just my opinion (which is worthless), that rather than a "prewar" wing, this beauty is likely a postwar wing converted to a senior observer rating by a WWII observer who finally reached the criteria for the senior observer rating.  Not that it takes anything away from these very nice wings.

 

 

[donaldnol]

2 hours ago, pfrost said:

For what ever reason, observer wings of any era tend to be an order or two magnitude less common than pilot wings from the same era.  In WWI the observer wing was intended to be worn by non-pilot officers performing various flight duties (gunner, observation/photography etc).  During the interwar years, the observer badge was generally given to non-pilot aircrew and pilots who were "downgraded" (for lack of a better word) to observer rating due to medical or other condition that took them off of active pilot service. I believe that a pilot could be dual rated as both a pilot and an observer, but in that case, the uniform codes prescribed wearing the pilot badge. Thus, in general, the observer wings (if or when worn) seems to occur more frequently on senior officers who were not really flying--although I suspect that most of them would just continue to wear their pilot badges.   By the time WWII started, the newly named (but same pattern) observer ratings could be earned by a pilot/senior pilot/command/pilot who also had qualifications as an aerial gunner,  navigator or bombardier.  Serving in an observation/reconnaissance unit or being a graduate of the AAF Tactical School could also be enough to get you an observer rating.  But with the VAST influx of new personnel, the relative number of individuals who were rated as observers (and not as bombardiers or navigators) was very small.

 

Thus, in addition (apparently) to not being that popular, the actual number of personnel that would have rated an observer badge after WWI would have been relatively low.  Between the wars, the number of guys you see wearing observer badges (either in photos or as part of an autobiographical grouping) are very low -- and the few that I have seen actually worn, typically come out of more senior officer's estates and those guys who were associated with testing or training schools (or more senior command billets).  Again, that was probably more related to the general structure of the US Military during that time period. Their were simply not that many billets for pilots and the turn over was pretty robust--and guys who stuck around were probably more admin types. 

 

During WWII the vast influx of new AAF officers were entering the service and going to to attend and graduate from navigator/bombardier schools were much more likely to wear their specific badge rather that the "flying-anal orifice" badge.  You also had a relatively large number of guys who washed out of flight training at one stage or another and were rerouted to other duties. You rarely see WWII groupings with an observer badge (although it is seen sometimes) and often it appears almost as an orphan badge.  IIRC the qualifications for the Senior Observer badge was authorized in either 1940 or a bit later in 1942 (please correct me if I am wrong), but like the senior pilot ratings, most WWII trained observers would have been qualified to get the badge until at least 1944/45 once the war was running down.  As for previously rated observers prior to WWII starting, again, I suspect that those individuals would just have worn the more prestigious senior or command pilot wings.

 

Interestingly, after WWI, the USAAC brass in Washington seemed to have sat down and thought up a fair number of observer related wings (like the aeronaut observer, 1919-1921 observer 1/2 wing and pilot/observer ratings) that almost never show up in photographs or biographical groupings (but never say never).  Some of these badges, like the aeronaught observer (balloon observer) wing were probably all but obsolete by the mid-1920's but companies were still making them for sale up to WWII.

 

Not an exhaustive list, but NS Meyer, AE Co, the From Official Dies wings, W Link/AMCRAFT (either from Link's dies or their own), Kenney, etc probably all made observer wings prior to WWII.

 

During WWII, the number of observer wings that were available jumped as would have been expected.  NS Meyer, for example, seems to have made at least 4 versions of observer/senior observer wings (the type 1 pre war "slick" wings, the type 2 pelican beak wings, the type 2 with stars on stilts, and the type 2 with stars not on stilts--and maybe even a 5th version).  Also, the observer wing made a great general platform for all the other ratings.  So I suspect that many observer wings were not really made as observer wings, but rather as the base for gunner/bombardier/FS wings, etc.  I suspect you find WAY more old new stock of dead observer wings that just never got made into gunner wings than actual observer wings sold as such.

 

You will also see a fair number of "jeweler-made" badges in which the star was added (probably) after the initial purchase. That seems to be the majority of senior pilot wings.  But one could imagine a company offering a senior star addition.

 

In almost all those cases, I suspect that the modifications were made sometime towards the end or after WWII.  Which is what I suspect has happened with this wing.  To me, this is an AMCRAFT pattern wing that may not actually have been made by AMCRAFT.  My sense is that later in the war (and into the KW time period), the AMCRAFT pattern was either copied or the dies were sold to other companies (like Dondero) which produced a very similar wing into post war time periods.  It is just my opinion (which is worthless), that rather than a "prewar" wing, this beauty is likely a postwar wing converted to a senior observer rating by a WWII observer who finally reached the criteria for the senior observer rating.  Not that it takes anything away from these very nice wings.

 

 

yea probable it could be what you think it is but still i am happy to have it thanks

[dmar836]

I've had this grouping for years. Enlisted in '42 as a pvt. Went to OCS. Became a gunnery officer. Did training and ended up in combat. I don't see he was ever a pilot. Pretty interesting.

Dave

[stratasfan]

2 hours ago, pfrost said:

For what ever reason, observer wings of any era tend to be an order or two magnitude less common than pilot wings from the same era.  In WWI the observer wing was intended to be worn by non-pilot officers performing various flight duties (gunner, observation/photography etc).  During the interwar years, the observer badge was generally given to non-pilot aircrew and pilots who were "downgraded" (for lack of a better word) to observer rating due to medical or other condition that took them off of active pilot service. I believe that a pilot could be dual rated as both a pilot and an observer, but in that case, the uniform codes prescribed wearing the pilot badge. Thus, in general, the observer wings (if or when worn) seems to occur more frequently on senior officers who were not really flying--although I suspect that most of them would just continue to wear their pilot badges.   By the time WWII started, the newly named (but same pattern) observer ratings could be earned by a pilot/senior pilot/command/pilot who also had qualifications as an aerial gunner,  navigator or bombardier.  Serving in an observation/reconnaissance unit or being a graduate of the AAF Tactical School could also be enough to get you an observer rating.  But with the VAST influx of new personnel, the relative number of individuals who were rated as observers (and not as bombardiers or navigators) was very small.

 

Thus, in addition (apparently) to not being that popular, the actual number of personnel that would have rated an observer badge after WWI would have been relatively low.  Between the wars, the number of guys you see wearing observer badges (either in photos or as part of an autobiographical grouping) are very low -- and the few that I have seen actually worn, typically come out of more senior officer's estates and those guys who were associated with testing or training schools (or more senior command billets).  Again, that was probably more related to the general structure of the US Military during that time period. Their were simply not that many billets for pilots and the turn over was pretty robust--and guys who stuck around were probably more admin types. 

 

During WWII the vast influx of new AAF officers were entering the service and going to to attend and graduate from navigator/bombardier schools were much more likely to wear their specific badge rather that the "flying-anal orifice" badge.  You also had a relatively large number of guys who washed out of flight training at one stage or another and were rerouted to other duties. You rarely see WWII groupings with an observer badge (although it is seen sometimes) and often it appears almost as an orphan badge.  IIRC the qualifications for the Senior Observer badge was authorized in either 1940 or a bit later in 1942 (please correct me if I am wrong), but like the senior pilot ratings, most WWII trained observers would have been qualified to get the badge until at least 1944/45 once the war was running down.  As for previously rated observers prior to WWII starting, again, I suspect that those individuals would just have worn the more prestigious senior or command pilot wings.

 

Interestingly, after WWI, the USAAC brass in Washington seemed to have sat down and thought up a fair number of observer related wings (like the aeronaut observer, 1919-1921 observer 1/2 wing and pilot/observer ratings) that almost never show up in photographs or biographical groupings (but never say never).  Some of these badges, like the aeronaught observer (balloon observer) wing were probably all but obsolete by the mid-1920's but companies were still making them for sale up to WWII.

 

Not an exhaustive list, but NS Meyer, AE Co, the From Official Dies wings, W Link/AMCRAFT (either from Link's dies or their own), Kenney, etc probably all made observer wings prior to WWII.

 

During WWII, the number of observer wings that were available jumped as would have been expected.  NS Meyer, for example, seems to have made at least 4 versions of observer/senior observer wings (the type 1 pre war "slick" wings, the type 2 pelican beak wings, the type 2 with stars on stilts, and the type 2 with stars not on stilts--and maybe even a 5th version).  Also, the observer wing made a great general platform for all the other ratings.  So I suspect that many observer wings were not really made as observer wings, but rather as the base for gunner/bombardier/FS wings, etc.  I suspect you find WAY more old new stock of dead observer wings that just never got made into gunner wings than actual observer wings sold as such.

 

You will also see a fair number of "jeweler-made" badges in which the star was added (probably) after the initial purchase. That seems to be the majority of senior pilot wings.  But one could imagine a company offering a senior star addition.

 

In almost all those cases, I suspect that the modifications were made sometime towards the end or after WWII.  Which is what I suspect has happened with this wing.  To me, this is an AMCRAFT pattern wing that may not actually have been made by AMCRAFT.  My sense is that later in the war (and into the KW time period), the AMCRAFT pattern was either copied or the dies were sold to other companies (like Dondero) which produced a very similar wing into post war time periods.  It is just my opinion (which is worthless), that rather than a "prewar" wing, this beauty is likely a postwar wing converted to a senior observer rating by a WWII observer who finally reached the criteria for the senior observer rating.  Not that it takes anything away from these very nice wings.

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing this really good info on the Observer badge. I have often wondered about the Observer badge, but never really read details on it. I have a picture of the Navigator who died with my GGUncle in 1943, and he is wearing an observer wing:

 

 

Would there have been a Navigator badge at this time or would this have been what you got? He graduated from Texas AMC in 1941, and went straight to flying school. However,  bad eyes sent him the Navigator route, and that's what he was until he died.  Would an Observer badge be more rare to see, then? 

[BHillen]

Very nice wing! 
If I may ask, what month and day in 1943 were the Senior Observer wings authorized? I have the Observer Wings as authorized November 10, 1941. Is this correct? Senior Observer is one of the holes in my collection I need to fill, and I’m thinking of displaying my ‘best wing’ case with the wings by authorized date.  
Thanks!

[pfrost]

Neat stuff.  I suspect that in general, if we think about the large, multi-crew aircraft, all commissioned officers (and what ever a Flight officer was considered) on that aircraft wore the pilot or related ratings, or observer wings, bombardier or navigator wings, while enlisted and NCOs wore gunner or aircrew wings.   Later ratings like flight engineer were more than likely only worn by officers as well.  Late in the war, the need for specially trained navigators and/or bombardiers assigned to a specific aircraft that wasn't in the lead, decreased and you started getting fewer crew on the big bombers (like the B17s and B24s).  In some planes, they removed a gunner or two, or combined navigator/bombardier positions... the great Navigaterdiers/Bombigators and toggelier ratings.  It is  entirely possible that one of the crew was repurposed to do something else outside of his regular duties and wore the observer wing instead. Or that someone was on a plane as a radio-operator or flight engineer and wore the observer wings.  Maybe someone just felt like the observer wing suited him better and as long as the local CO was ok with it, he chose to wear that one rather than the other.

 

It is also possible that an officer trained in aerial gunnery was included on an aircraft as a gunner (or more likely an officer training gunners) and rather than wear the "enlisted gunner wing" wore the officer's observer wing.  With as many theaters of operation and guys being trained to do this or that as the needs of the war changed, I suspect that there was a relative amount of flexibility.  I have a grouping of a B24 pilot that includes a wing from each man in his crew, (two pilot wings, 3 gunner wings, a navigator, bombardier and observer wing).  His son just knew the wings were a gift from the crew, but nothing more. 

 

I believe that is why the observer wings are relatively rare in that it is just easier to assume if you were an officer in the AAF and graduated from one of the training schools your wings issued would be either pilot, navigator or bombardier.  So those are the most common.  Just like if you graduated from one of the AAF training schools as an enlisted man, you wore either the aircrew or gunner wings.  Again.. the most common ratings.

[B-17Guy]

Here is a previous thread on the same subject.