Unknown M.No. Navy Mexico Campaign Medal contract?

[MMcollector]

   I acquired this M.Nọ 1339 Navy Mexico Campaign Medal some time ago. I didn’t realize the number range was outside of the known contracts from the Gleim medal letters.  It has all of the characteristics of a U.S. mint made medal from the 1930’s. I’ve seen plenty of miss-stamped M.’s Or Nọ’s and the space between the letters and numbers is wider than normal but we’ve seen that on blocks of 1930’s U.S. Mint number medals (ex. 5,xxx range USMC 2nd Nicaraguan & the USMC Yangtze Service). 
 

What do you say about this one? Unknown contract? Must be rare. 

[Foxfall]

This appears to be a fake. The medal itself was not struck using approved dies. The medal does not have the features usually associated with campaign medals made by the US Mint during the interwar years. The so-called mint numbering is significantly unlike other mint numbers. Also, if it is a contract piece, why would it be "mint" numbered? Probably a copy medal altered to make it look official.

[MMcollector]

3 hours ago, Foxfall said:

This appears to be a fake. The medal itself was not struck using approved dies. The medal does not have the features usually associated with campaign medals made by the US Mint during the interwar years. The so-called mint numbering is significantly unlike other mint numbers. Also, if it is a contract piece, why would it be "mint" numbered? Probably a copy medal altered to make it look official.

 I have to say I disagree, the bail ring is 100% U.S. Mint, same solder they used as well, I’ve never seen that replicated correctly. I know you have a lot more experience than myself, I just don’t think this is a fake. 
 

The U.S. Mint made 3 known M.Nọ contracts as well as 3 un-numbered contracts from 1929-1946. 

[MMcollector]

Here are the original BBB designed reverse and the later U.S. Mint designs reverse. Both are official. Let’s all get on the same page. 
 

type-1 1918 BBB “curved for service”

 

[MMcollector]

Later U.S. Mint designed reverse:

 

1930 U.S. Mint contract “straight for service”:

 

 

[MMcollector]

1940’s U.S. Mint contract “straight for service” un-numbered:

[MottTheHoople]

Like foxfall said, the die is clearly different.  

[aerialbridge]

Could you post a side by side comparison, front and back, of the medal in question and an inarguable M No medal?

[MMcollector]

5 hours ago, MottTheHoople said:

Like foxfall said, the die is clearly different.  

Clearly different than the 1918 contract but that’s very old news. Its documented in the Gleim letters about the design change. It’s exactly as the other’s I have posted that are 100% genuine contracts from the U.S. Mint so it appears some aren’t aware of these later genuine contracts from the Mint. 100% you can pick of the Gleim medal letters and check the research yourself.  

[MMcollector]

5 hours ago, aerialbridge said:

Could you post a side by side comparison, front and back, of the medal in question and an inarguable M No medal?

 
unfortunately I do not have another M.No. Mexico Campaign Medal to compare side by side.  I will however overlay them when I get time to prove my point.

[MMcollector]

Page 298 of the expanded edition of the call of duty. I rest my case about the design change.  We can move past that now and address the numbering. 

[MottTheHoople]

3 minutes ago, MMcollector said:

 
unfortunately I do not have another M.No. Mexico Campaign Medal to compare side by side.  I will however overlay them when I get time to prove my point.

 

11 minutes ago, MMcollector said:

Clearly different than the 1918 contract but that’s very old news. Its documented in the Gleim letters about the design change. It’s exactly as the other’s I have posted that are 100% genuine contracts from the U.S. Mint so it appears some aren’t aware of these later genuine contracts from the Mint. 100% you can pick of the Gleim medal letters and check the research yourself.  

I could but the medal in question does not match either the 1930's or 1940's U.S. Mint examples you posted.  Do you have a picture of a U.S. Mint strike that does match the medal in question? 

[MottTheHoople]

8 minutes ago, MMcollector said:

Page 298 of the expanded edition of the call of duty. I rest my case about the design change.  We can move past that now and address the numbering. 

That is not a match either.  So no, we can't move past that now.

[Adam R]

I think the medal is authentic. Rather than being part of an unknown contract with the Mint, it was probably produced in the 1930s as a replacement for a recipient who had lost his original BB&B medal, # 1339.

 

I have a near identical medal, M.No. 9490, that is in a group with a replacement Good Conduct Medal. The medal is almost certainly a US Mint replacement for  BB&B USN Mexico # 9490 which was originally issued to the same recipient.

 

Somewhere I have a copy of a 1930s era letter from the Navy to the Mint specifying that they produce and issue a replacement campaign medal, with the medal number to be marked on the rim specified. The number was that of the original medal which had been lost and was being replaced. As soon as I’m able to find the letter I’ll post it here.

 

This is my US Mint USN Mexico M.No. 9490, which is in the number range that was originally produced by BB&B with plain (un-prefixed) numbers in 1918.

 

BTW, the medal M.No. 16174 to O.R. Roberts, USS Lawrence shown above is in my collection but was photographed with my permission.

[MMcollector]

8 minutes ago, Adam R said:

I think the medal is authentic. Rather than being part of an unknown contract with the Mint, it was probably produced in the 1930s as a replacement for a recipient who had lost his original BB&B medal, # 1339.

 

I have a near identical medal, M.No. 9490, that is in a group with a replacement Good Conduct Medal. The medal is almost certainly a US Mint replacement for  BB&B USN Mexico # 9490 which was originally issued to the same recipient.

 

Somewhere I have a copy of a 1930s era letter from the Navy to the Mint specifying that they produce and issue a replacement campaign medal, with the medal number to be marked on the rim specified. The number was that of the original medal which had been lost and was being replaced. As soon as I’m able to find the letter I’ll post it here.

 

This is my US Mint USN Mexico M.No. 9490, which is in the number range that was originally produced by BB&B with plain (un-prefixed) numbers in 1918.

 

BTW, the medal M.No. 16174 to O.R. Roberts, USS Lawrence shown above is in my collection but was photographed with my permission.

 Thank you Adam. I appreciate your amazing amount of knowledge about U.S. military medals, and for allowing me to photograph your rare engraved example M.Nọ 16174. I agree with your explanation here.  It’s 100% a genuine U.S. mint medal made in the 1930’s and issued to a sailor. It’s not fake, not nefariously numbered, or an unauthorized design.  

[aerialbridge]

Clinton, Even if Adam hadn't given his opinion, I would agree that it's just what it appears to be, a US Mint Mexico Service.  The impressed letters and numbers are spot on-- there's no faker out there that has duplicated those.  Just like there is no fake Sampson out there that can match the letter and number stamping on the US Mint Phase 1 Sampsons or the original Tiffany named Deweys.  First thing I ask when the fake flags fly is why would someone fake the thing in question?   It's not that rare or expensive a medal.  So makes no sense why it would be faked, and if the faker were expert enough to exactly replicate the Mint stamping, then why not number it in the expected sequence. 

[MottTheHoople]

I'm far less interested in calling it fake than I am looking at the die differences.  Whether it's a recut hub or a repressed die, there are clear differences.  For the sake of being thorough, lets stop trying to breeze past the small die variations.  These small variations will narrow this down from "looks like a 30's strike" to a specific year or run of this medal.   We can start with # 9490 since it seems closer but too grainy to tell.  Adam, do you have better pictures of the obverse & reverse of medal 9490?  Also, Clinton, if you can find any closer matches that would be helpful as well?

[ErwinRommel1940]

6 hours ago, aerialbridge said:

Clinton, Even if Adam hadn't given his opinion, I would agree that it's just what it appears to be, a US Mint Mexico Service.  The impressed letters and numbers are spot on-- there's no faker out there that has duplicated those.  Just like there is no fake Sampson out there that can match the letter and number stamping on the US Mint Phase 1 Sampsons or the original Tiffany named Deweys.  First thing I ask when the fake flags fly is why would someone fake the thing in question?   It's not that rare or expensive a medal.  So makes no sense why it would be faked, and if the faker were expert enough to exactly replicate the Mint stamping, then why not number it in the expected sequence. 

Slightly outside the scope of the discussion here, but an item not being rare or expensive are not criteria that I would be comfortable using to disqualify something as being fake. Having come from the area of German medal collecting, I have seen fake $30 medals of which millions were made. If there is a buck to be made, fakes are sure to follow.

[aerialbridge]

Point taken. But there's a HUGE market for German Medals, especially from the 1930s through 1945.   So the faker makes up his purchase point in volume.  Not so much demand for a USN Mexico Service medal to go through the trouble.  The impressed lettering and numbering is what really does it for me here.   It was put on by the US Mint not some clown trying to make a crooked buck.  Beyond that, it's all speculation IMO. 

[MMcollector]

[MMcollector]

17 minutes ago, MMcollector said:

17 minutes ago, MMcollector said:

the top photo should say Adam’s M.Nọ 16174, not 9490

[MottTheHoople]

Can we see the entire obverse & reverse?

[MottTheHoople]

Clinton, can we see the entire obverse & reverse? 

[MMcollector]

7 hours ago, MottTheHoople said:

Clinton, can we see the entire obverse & reverse? 

I’m not sure what your asking, which medal would you like another photo of the obverse/reverse  All the medals I have posted have had photos of the front and back. 

[Adam R]

I finally had a chance to take some pictures of my medal, M.No. 9490. It's part of a group that came directly from the family of the recipient (Henry S. Carter). Unfortunately Carter's service file in St. Louis was "culled" during WWII and all of his medal records were removed so I don't have any documentation on the issue of his original Mexico or the replacement. Once I can get back to the Archives in DC I'll check some of the correspondence files there for any orders to the Mint for a replacement medal. Carter's group also includes a 1930s era US Mint replacement Good Conduct Medal and bar.

 

When I have a chance I'll take a photo of Carter's Mexico next to M.No. 16174 for a direct comparison.

 

Obverse of M.No. 9490.