Very rare SOE Intelligence school patch

[mortaydc60]

Understand that this is not US item per say ,but think it would be of interest to members since many have an interest is OSS items and this is related and sure there is some crossover interest.

Do not believe this to be that well known an insignia and for me only been aware of its existence fainly recently. Previous example I have found online I believe for the most part were reproductions. This example I am pretty confident is real since it was on a war time cape with other patches. All the other I found sold for under $100 which I believe again were fakes. Very simple and easy to fake design for starters.This sold for near $750 so someone was pretty sure it was the real deal. 

[Dave T]

Interesting patch. Never heard of it before, but then again i have only a very novice knowledge of SOE related articles.

How/where was this patch worn? Also are there period photographs in regards to the patch?

[ocsfollowme]

Came off of a jacket with hundreds of patches. I researched it when it was at $450 this morning. The provenance of the jacket helped the buyer make a great choice. I just missed a last second bid on the army physical fitness 101st airborne patch that sold for $25 to include shipping.

[Allan H.]

Those Army Physical Fitness patches are more common that often believed and if Bando didn't have one on his site, they wouldn't be associated with the 101st. 

 

Allan

[mortaydc60]

Good luck finding a photo of it being worn. Just posing another thought, kind of remember a similar insignia  maybe US with witches on brooms having to do with AA it that they were "sweeping the skies". Does anyone have some info on that?

 

Mort

[Allan H.]

[Allan H.]

The photo above came from this website- http://www.mi9-is9.com/is9-wea.html

 

Allan

[otter42]

Great site, thanks Allen

[mortaydc60]

Allan you should buy a lottery ticket. thanks for posting the site and very kool cartoons of the witches.

[Tonomachi]

I was watching this and I didn't think it was real despite it being on that WW2 Queen Alexandras Nursing cape.  I placed a request for opinions about this piece on our sister forum (see link) but so far no one has spoken up.  I have photos I've kept over the years of possible real ones that don't look like this one and am reluctant to post them due to all of the counterfeiters that read our posts.   

 

https://www.worldmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/317411-british-soe-mi-9-three-witches-formation-sign-of-is-9-wea-intelligence-school-no-9/&tab=comments#comment-2539660

 

 

[mortaydc60]

Not sure what you question about the patch to have doubts. Did not see other questionable items on the cape and all looked period. What was being faked during the war? Understand if post war  in the US with PK and Boots but this was English and do not know if that was a possibility  there at that time. Just asking  an honest question, not trying to be confrontational.

[Brian Dentino]

Since Allan posted a picture with an RAF pilot wearing the "3 witches" patch maybe for some sort of night fighter squadron?  I think it is a cool patch either way and in no way would comment on legitimacy of the OP just throwing my 2 cents and worthless plug nickel into the thoughts on this one.

[Tonomachi]

3 hours ago, mortaydc60 said:

Not sure what you question about the patch to have doubts. Did not see other questionable items on the cape and all looked period. What was being faked during the war? Understand if post war  in the US with PK and Boots but this was English and do not know if that was a possibility  there at that time. Just asking  an honest question, not trying to be confrontational.

You seem to be basing the authenticity of this piece on the fact that it is sewn to a period WW2 nurse's cape with what looks like original WW2 British made insignia.  Since the other WW2 era British made insignia are original then this patch must be from the same era and original as well.  Over the years most of the fake stuff that I have unknowingly purchased has come out of the UK so I don't trust a lot of the rare stuff that comes out of the UK where there hasn't been a lot published where you can compare the real thing from what is being offered for sale.  I wouldn't put it past these counterfeiters to sew a fake patch onto an original patch jacket which is what I believe has taken place here.  I have pictures of what I believe to be an original patch that was purchased some time ago and is in the possession of an advanced collector of SOE & OSS insignia.  It doesn't match this one at all.  I also have a picture of an attributed bullion version of this this patch that is in the possession of the veteran's wife and is shield shaped instead of being rectangular like this one.  Both of these patches have a similar characteristic that is lacking on the patch in Post 1.  You can actually make out these characteristics in the same period photograph in Post 6.  There is a close up of the officer on the far right that I have saved on a word document but I can't seem to find the actual photograph image file that I may not have saved.  You can just make out these characteristics in this close up that is missing from the patch in Post 1.   For these reasons I believe that the patch that sold for $740.75 is fake.   

[mortaydc60]

Thanks for the explanation. With so little info available and examples that are with out question real, the collector is really in a pickle. Sad to learn of your experience with English items , especially troubling with adding to period jackets and so forth. Do not think that is a very common practice with US items that i am aware of, but again would not be surprised if it has happened, but usually when a rare item shows up on period piece it is a big plus and helps the story more often than not. My problem is that I tend to trust and not very skeptical.

[Allan H.]

12 hours ago, Brian Dentino said:

Since Allan posted a picture with an RAF pilot wearing the "3 witches" patch maybe for some sort of night fighter squadron?  I think it is a cool patch either way and in no way would comment on legitimacy of the OP just throwing my 2 cents and worthless plug nickel into the thoughts on this one.

Brian,

 

The Captain wearing the patch in question is an army rated pilot as opposed to an RAF pilot, so we ought to be able to rule out night squadrons of any kind. I believe that the three  witches come out of William Shakespeare's Mac Beth.  Just about anyone who ever had to read Mac Beth in school remembers, "Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn and caldron bubble." 

I believe that the three witches were chosen for this group in SOE MI-9 from the description of three witches in strange apparel, who churn out prophecies for the King. 

 

As for discussion as to the originality of the patch on the cape... I have seen it both ways- what better way to sell a fake than to put in with a bunch of original insignia and to then claim ignorance as to originality? In this case, the three witches patch wasn't mentioned in the description, so IF the patch was a fake, the seller would have to rely on others to not only "discover" the rarity, but to advertise it to other potential buyers.  This is a pretty scary method to roll the dice if you ask me. This is especially true as we see so much visibly bad insignia selling for decent money from the likes of "Old Club Patches" and others. I would say that if the seller was aware that the three witches patch was a rarity, why not use all of the advertising power that it would command? If the patch were deemed to be a fake, the seller could simply put in a claim with eBay that the cape was altered when the patch was removed, which would void the return.

 

My gut says that this is a real patch, but the reality is that we may never be able to know for sure.

 

Allan

[Tonomachi]

I found an image (below) of another one of these patches that sold on a British auction site in November of 2020.  This one matches the one in Post 1 so there were at least two of these patches that were produced.  For this patch to be real then this would have to be yet a third variant and for something this rare I'm skeptical as to its authenticity since it does not match the one being worn on the left shoulder of the RCA pilot.   There is a book or a magazine article that I don't have the title of that I have parts of a few pages that illustrates two variants of this patch.  The first patch illustrated matches the one in the possession of the mentioned advanced SOE OSS Collector.   The second variant does not match the one in Post 1 but has the mentioned characteristic that is in the close up photograph of the pilot.  I could be wrong but there have been so much counterfeit insignia that has come out of the UK over the years that I wouldn't spend this kind of money unless I was absolutely sure which I'm not.