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INTERWAR SSI -1920 to 1940 Shoulder Sleeve Insignia Post yours here


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Hello all,

 

After trying to learn and compare examples, is this a genuine example of an interwar Hawaiian Dept. SSI patch? To me, the construction, age and backing seems to be appropriate. On the back the threads also seem to be remnants from the "no sow" device that was discussed above, is that a correct assumption? 

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The real deal and the removal of snapbacks was probably done by a collector for easier display mounting.  Technically though No-So patented devices were full metal plates that matched the shape of the Shoulder Insignia.  In this case an octagon.  There are several references on this in the forum.  

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Salvage Sailor

As John wrote above that's a legit HD felt SSI with the snaps removed, but not a no-so patch.

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Let's see how the "Proficiency of the Chinese Spoken Language" cuff award stack up to a bonafide award with provenance.

 

USAFC G.O. on the authorization of the specialty award dayed Feb 19, 1930.

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Boyatt was awarded this Proficiency rating only months after it'd authorization but unfortunately he did not enjoy the bragging rights of showing off his hard work as he died shortly afterwards.  

 

His cuff award remained on his approval document since April of 1930, and shows what a genuine example is supposed to look like.

 

 

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Also note the pastel hues of both the red and green field.  Plus the distinctively extended chop mark of the leftside of the "Chung" character.  Made locally, by a local, and you'd think they'd know how to replicate their owe language character in cloth form.  

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Here are some samples of interwar-era 29th Division SSIs, circa mid-1930s.

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This example is from 1921, during the early reorganization period of the Virginia National Guard. This Guardsman lived in Newport News, Va.

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Here is an example that was worn by a Captain in the 111th Field Artillery, 1934. There are wide variations on the way the interwar 29th SSIs were made (and worn)…..lots of photographic evidence as well.

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On 8/11/2021 at 1:55 AM, kiaiokalewa said:

The real deal and the removal of snapbacks was probably done by a collector for easier display mounting.  Technically though No-So patented devices were full metal plates that matched the shape of the Shoulder Insignia.  In this case an octagon.  There are several references on this in the forum.  

 

Thank you all for clarifying, I must have been confused between the different attachment systems.

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7 hours ago, everforward said:

Here is an example that was worn by a Captain in the 111th Field Artillery, 1934. There are wide variations on the way the interwar 29th SSIs were made (and worn)…..lots of photographic evidence as well.

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On file a have several great pics of the air section (mid 20s) showing just what you've stated, the multiple use of different styles of the divisions shoulder insignia to include a bevo patch all in one sitting.  Because this was taken during the transitional stage of uniform and insignia changes there's standing collared, lapel coat, darken bronzed and gilt hardware, insignia and even the rare usage of the 29th Air Section DI.  All the men were wearing them in the four or five photographs I have.  

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CIRCA 1930-1941, PRE WWII,  ARMY, 2nd CORPS, CALVARY, EMBROIDERED ON WOOL, VINTAGE

 

Appears to be a small moth nip on the upper yellow border, otherwise a very nice 2nd Corps patch. This 2ND CORPS patch does not react to ultra violet light.
 

The II Corps was a corps-sized formation of the United States Army that was active in both World War I and World War II. It was originally formed and fought on the Western Front during World War I and was also the first American formation of any size to see combat in North Africa or Europe during World War II. 

The Interwar Years: 

 

As part of the National Defense Act of 1920, II Corps was constituted as a unit of the National Guard on 29 Jul 1921. On 15 August 1927 with a subsequent reorganization of the Army, the corps was constituted as a corps in the Regular Army. In preparation for the expansion of the Army, it was activated at Fort Jay, New York as a fully functioning combat unit on 1 August 1940. 

WWII:

 

Six months after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the American entry into World War II, II Corps was sent to England in June 1942, under the command of Major General Mark W. Clark. In November, now under Major General Lloyd Fredendall, II Corps landed in Oran as part of Operation Torch, the Allied invasion of French North Africa. After initially making good headway against German forces during the Tunisia Campaign, II Corps was defeated by German troops under Hans-Jürgen von Arnim at the Battle of Sidi Bou Zid. II Corps was again decisively defeated in February 1943 during the Battle of Kasserine Pass by veteran troops under Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel. The defeats were compounded by American inexperience, poor senior leadership, and lack of armor comparable to that in the German panzer forces, as well as the highly effective German high-velocity 88 mm anti-tank guns, which were used in screening tactics to destroy American tanks lured into pursuit of German armored forces

In March 1943, after a change of command to Major General George Patton, II Corps recovered its cohesion and fought well for the rest of the Tunisia Campaign, winning the Battle of El Guettar. II Corps held the southern flank of the British First Army during the destruction of the remaining Axis forces in North Africa. The war in North Africa ended in May 1943 with almost 250,000 Axis soldiers surrendering, to become prisoners of war.

On 10 July 1943, II Corps, commanded now by Major General Omar Bradley, took part in the amphibious invasion of Sicily (code named Operation Husky) under command of the U.S. Seventh Army. It played a key part in the liberation of the western part of the island. The corps consisted of the 1st Infantry Division (United States), 3rd, 9th, and 45th Infantry Divisions. The Allied campaign in Sicily came to an end after 38 days.

Now under Major General Geoffrey Keyes, II Corps was sent to the Italian Front, arriving in mid-November as part of the U.S. Fifth Army, where it was to serve for the rest of the conflict, participating in grueling mountain warfare and often experienced fighting in terrible weather conditions. Soon after arrival, II Corps took the 3rd and 36th Infantry Divisions under command. In late January 1944 II Corps, now with the 1st Armored Division under command, took part in the Battle of Rapido River, part of the first Battle of Monte Cassino, to distract German attention away from the Anzio landings. The operation failed with heavy losses in the 36th Division. During the fourth and final battle of Cassino in May, II Corps consisted of the 85th and 88th Infantry Divisions. For the assault of the German Gothic Line, II Corps consisted of the 34th, 88th and 91st Infantry Divisions. The corps moved up the western side of Italy, and fought in the Spring 1945 offensive in Italy, where it ended up on the right flank of the Fifth Army in May 1945.

II Corps was inactivated in Austria on 10 October 1945, following Germany's surrender. 

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As a public service, although it's from the respected Bill Wise's former collection, this example is a reproduction.

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Here's  an authentic  example of proper construction and materials.

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Also from the collection a nice chainstitched variation.

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From Tex36 collection another chainstitched variety.

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  • 2 weeks later...

At 169.00 and the damn "Kincaid" still got away!  ASMIC member will understand the "Kincaid" reference.  This Division, Command and Staff patch is the real deal and is a product from 1922-1934, when the Division was wear unit specific Shoulder Insignia.

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On 9/8/2021 at 1:55 PM, kiaiokalewa said:

OMFG!!!

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$1400+ w/ a day to go and two "bidders," one with 14 bids and one w/ 28, are in the scrabble.  You can bet they are clueless, too.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

Some place on the forum it's been claimed that meshed stabilizers aka: "cheesecloth" used in the construction of legitimate interwar Shoulder Insignia is a sure indicator that they are reproductions however there are exceptions to the rules and these two authentic 7th Cavalry Brigade unit specific Insignia prove this point.  It seems that the manufacturer of the infamous "waffle weave" Insignia were compelled to incorporate the flimsy white cloth stabilizers in the manufacturing of their insignia.  Perhaps it kept the rather thick O.D. wool field from separating during their unique embroidery process especially during the "zigzaging" effect.  

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Units of HHQ, 7th Cavalry Brigade, Ft. Knox, 1932-1940.

 

  1st Cavalry Regiment 1933-40 

  4th Cavalry Regiment 1933-36 

13th Cavalry Regiment 1933-40 

(was not aware of 4th C.R. assignment before and wonder if there might be a red numeral variation floating around out there?)

68th Field Artillery 1933-40 

7th Recon and Support 1939-40

4th Medical Squadron 1939-40 

(mistakenly called out by some as 4th Medical Troop which it isn't!)

19th Ordnance Troop 1936-40

7th Signal Troop 1939-40 

(this specific unit is news to me and now makes me wonder if theirs a Signal Troop Insignia running around out there.  You'd think so especially with known 4th, 5th, 19th and 47th "waffle-weaved" patches circulating in collections.)

47th Engineer Troop 1939-40 

5th Quartermaster, Company A 1939-40 

(Although not assigned to the 7th Cavalry Brigade, the 5th Quartermaster Regiment with HQ in Ohio had Company A at Ft. Knox after the redesignation of the 5th Division Quartermaster Train in 1933.  Company A, was formed from the 28th Motor Repair Company which tells us that they were the mechanics for the 7th Cavalry Brigade. 

 

As a reference the 5th QM, Co. A, patch is from the former Stan Blake collection.   

 

 

2 hours ago, kiaiokalewa said:

Some place on the forum it's been claimed that meshed stabilizers aka: "cheesecloth" used in the construction of legitimate interwar Shoulder Insignia is a sure indicator that they are reproductions however there are exceptions to the rules and these two authentic 7th Cavalry Brigade unit specific Insignia prove this point.  It seems that the manufacturer of the infamous "waffle weave" Insignia were compelled to incorporate the flimsy white cloth stabilizers in the manufacturing of their insignia.  Perhaps it kept the rather thick O.D. wool field from separating during their unique embroidery process especially during the "zigzaging" effect.  

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2 hours ago, kiaiokalewa said:

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  • 2 months later...

From the infamous "Kincaid Dies" of Ft. Bliss's Kincaid Tailor Shop, these two (currently on eBay auction) are convincingly sporting as authentic 1st Cav. Div unit specific patches worn during 1922-1934.  Problem is the Brigade Commander Staff and Headquarter Troop horse head color is not representative of the 1st or 2nd Brigade colors of Scarlet or Blue respectively.  

 

If two stars were present in the black bend with black horse head there would be no problems  at all since this would be representative of the Division's Commander Staff and Headquarter Troop.

 

The Red bend,  Black horsehead patch is also made by the "Kincaid Dies"  (signature horse head style) is the correct color combinations for 1st Cavalry Division's Artillery but the material used in the shield is not period correct.  

 

Interestingly enough the yellow shield used in the other 1st Cavalry Division patch cover on this  topic is correct.  Go figure.

 

 

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