Very rare Coast Artillery School patch

[mortaydc60]

This patch was once in my collection and just sold on Ebay for $279. Believe I have only seen one other in 60 years of collecting and think this is well worth sharing with the community to learn of its existence. There is also a printed/silk screen version on red felt material but this is the one you want. Excellent pickup by the winner and someone who has some knowledge 

[tredhed2]

This is only the second one I have seen in 60+ years of collecting.  Lot of closet collectors still out there. too - unk what rare insignia is in captivity..... 

 

Many collectors know little about interwar patches and avoid them. The Army was small, so were its units, so insignia tends to be uncommon.  Same as the 1st Cav Div (and other cav div) patches of the time frame and similar lack of interest.   

 

There is a fairly new "Interwar" category now and perhaps this could be moved?

   

[T Ambrosini]

That is a nice patch and somehow flew under my radar.

 

Tom

[greendevilsix]

It was on my radar but over my limit. 

 

[mortaydc60]

Actually sold cheap. Had it at my tables for a couple of years  and most lookers if not all had no clue about the patch. Surprised did not go higher but the level of knowledge in many on ebay is lacking; no books and no membership in ASMIC or Forum,etc.

[kiaiokalewa]

As I recall there was a total of three of these that sold on ebay maybe 20 years ago and all by the same vendor.  One sold for about as much as your currently realized price and the other two were delisted.  You know the inside deal to capture the remaining.  Im not sure whatever happened to the third piece but do know who has other one in their collection and that's not including the one you just had sold.  

 

The unauthorized distinctive insignia looks exactly like the patch too include the same shade of green.  Not nearly as tough to come across as the scarcely encountered patch.  The question here is what was its purpose; athletic, cloth award, shoulder insignia, or something else. 

 

I'd like to think it's an early 1920s attempt to institute the formal use of the schools shoulder insignia but was shot down along with the Infantry School and perhaps others due not being a Corps, Army or Division during the infacy of shoulder insignia development.  

 

This would be one possible account why this particular patch is so damn rare.

 

 

[ocsfollowme]

I think in the past 5-7 years I have seen three of these on eBay, to include this one. Could be the same ones passing back in forth? 

 

There are two felt, pennant type, variations out there too. Black and yellow screen print on red. 

 

I wonder of Cadre only wore the patch or if cadets did too? If it was solely cadre, it would make sense why so few have showed up. 

 

I believe ASMIC has a second (newer) variation of the Distinctive Insignia...so was this patch short lived? 

 

 

It would be interesting to find out when this design ceased to exist. Here is a diploma that Vincennes posted dated 1919. The school was located at Fort Monroe from 1907 to 1946. 

 

 

 

 

[kiaiokalewa]

The design of the patch in question was the coat of arms for the Coast Artillery School.  The unauthorized but worn by C.A. School that looks identical to the patch that started this thread was very short lived and was replaced with the approval of the central design of the patch (shield with C.A.C branch device above in red field and sea mine below in blue field.  The sample of this distinctive insignia occurred March of 1929.  It was March of 1942 when the Coast Artillery Corps abolished and it would make sense that the coat of arms would have rescinded around the sametime frame. 

 

What is interesting about the color selection used in the patch that started this whole topic was green.  At West Point there was the Army Service School Detachments (ASSD).  These Detachments had troops that performed instructional courses or duties at a school of their specialties.  The special branch color of green was used sort of like a branch indicator.  On their 1902 dress uniform and if they were enlisted troops they would have green colored chevrons in place of their regular branch colors.  The Coast Artillery Corps branch color was scarlet but not if they were at the ASSD it was green.  For example; an CAC Electrician Sgt. had white lighting bolts with three scarlet chevrons but at the ASSD chevrons are green with white lighting bolts. 

 

Now considering this, it likely that this green disc C.A. School patch was intended for the C.A. ASSD at West Point.  But here's where it get really interesting, the War Department rescinded the Service School insignia/color in 1921, of course it took a several years before the die-hards were instructed to cut the crap an discontinue wearing their obsolete insignia.  This probably explains why the green disc patch is so damn rare.  

 

The other two that proceed it that are screen printed on felt look to be after the fact and probably cut out from school pennants or the likes and having not the same gravity as what might be considered a CA ASSD shoulder insignia.

 

That's my three cents.

 

 

 

 

[kiaiokalewa]

In reference to CAC ASSD chevrons.  Note the color green used throughout these examples.

This is the reason why I think there's a strong connection with the green disc school patch and it affiliation with the Army Service School Detachment.

 

 

[Salvage Sailor]

Nice Chevrons, I've never seen those before

[kiaiokalewa]

Here's the unauthorized CA School DI.  Notice that it's exactly the same as the patch.  The one I had was an unhallmarked screwback.  

[kiaiokalewa]

Here's the approved CA School DI of 1929.  This particular example is made of sterling and does come in both screwback and pinback with no hallmarks.

[kiaiokalewa]

This is the colorized coat of arms for the C.A. School.  

[kiaiokalewa]

To place the ASSD operations in context it was not exclusive to West Point rather these functions carried on throughout the various schools throughout the CONUS.  At Ft. Monroe, once home on the Coast Artillery  School, had a Detachment of the service school on campus.  In relation the Command General Staff College (CGSC) also had a detachment of service school at Ft. Leavenworth, however it was a colored outfit.  It too had a coat of arms (just like all the other schools at time) and had used the design to manufacture cloth insignia.  One of my professional writing colleagues studied the ASSD at Leavenworth during the early pre war years and discovered similar anomalies of school insignia incorporating the color green into the design.  If I'm not mistaken, I do believe he covered this in his Tidbit column in the Trading Post not too long ago and had illustrated the very green background cloth insignia for the CGSC that I referred to earlier.

After years of researching Interwar insignia history myself curious factors like these are the exceptions, not rule, leaving the green background Coast Artillery School patches a more plausible case for a ASSD connection.  

 

My four cent opinion on the matter.

[ocsfollowme]

I asked the Fort Monroe staff if they had anything to add to this thread. Their response:

 

Not much more than what you already have posted on the site below.It is indeed the coast artillery school coat of arms, the same as that found on the coast artillery school building at Fort Monroe. Eventually there were CAS DUIs designed and worn at least by the officers teaching at the school. For the most part soldiers were only at the school for a short period taking their classes, 6-8-12 weeks etc. as part of their trading for what ever unit they were assigned to. Likely the men attending the school kept their unit insignia and (my guess is) only personnel assigned to the CAS wore CAS DUIs and insignia. 

 

Could this be something that was worn on a coat or overcoat? It can get cold and blustery at Fort Monroe. Could it be something only worn by the officers and staff of the CAS?

 

As noted the CAS was closed at Monroe and moved to San Francisco in 1946, before ending al together by 1950.

 

I only have some material on the DUIs of the coast artillery corps regimental units, and some information on the CAC/AAA battalion DUIs of 1943-1958

[T Ambrosini]

Here is another unauthorized CAS DI, this from my collection.  Screw back, no hallmark.

[Chris]

I just saw this post. I found two of these School patches sitting on a table, on the 3rd day of a 3-day antique show, in Portland, OR. I am guessing it was 15-20 years ago. I hadn't seen one prior, and have not seen one since. I don't think anyone knew what they were, but at 10.00 each, I am surprised somebody didn't snag them. Due to the significant CA presence on the west coast, I have expected to find a few more over the years, but never have. This is an elusive patch!