What did they wear? - Gunner/Engineer or Radio Op. on B-17s and 24s in the 1943-44 timeframe

[Marc Garlasco]

Gents,

I’m going through some of my groups and wondering what these gents would have worn on a B-17/24 in the 43-44 timeframe. 
thanks!

 

Top turret gunner/flight engineer? 
radio operator?

[5thwingmarty]

They could have worn either Aerial Gunner or Aircrew wings.  Given the choice they would probably have chosen the Aerial Gunner wings to wear.

 

Sone flight engineers received unique wings after graduating from the Boeing school that had an E on an Observer wing, but I have never seen any photos of them being worn.  B-17/B-24 Flight Engineers did not get the F/E wings.

 

Marty

[Marc Garlasco]

Many thanks!

[Radio Operator]

I believe radio operators could also wear either aircrew or aerial gunner wings, but I know for sure they wore aircrew wings. Starting with the B-17G they put a machinegun in the radio room that they were supposed to man during combat. Have you ever posted your radio operator grouping? My great uncle was a radio operator in a B-17G, and I always love to see groupings/uniforms of other radio operators. 

[Tesla]

I have a flight engineer wing owned by  Andrew Weiman TSgt, Flight Engineer, Top Turret Gunner 446TH Bomb Group.  I unfortunately was not able to get the entire grouping, but he also had an Aircrew wing and an Observer wing in the grouping.

[Tesla]

I forgot to mention he was in a B-24. I also found the pic of the rest of his wings.  

[B-17Guy]

Cool group.

Remember, the FE wing was not approved until after the war in Europe was over and the war in the Pacific was almost over.

Like Marty said, most would have worn an Aircrew wing early war or a maybe Gunner wing starting mid war.

True, some had unofficial Engineer wings, but those were never approved and most likely not worn on their uniforms.

The reason the FE wing was created was for the true third seat position...ie the B29 and subsequent aircraft with a dedicated position.

Hope that helps.

John

[5thwingmarty]

He may have been a B-24 Flight Engineer, but that would not have qualified him to wear F/E wings.  They were created for B-29 and B-32 Flight Engineers.  Some B-17 and B-24 Flight Engineers went through additional training and became B-29 Flight Engineers, so he may have earned them that way.  Or he might have liked the F/E wings and bought them for himself sometime later.  The Observer wing is also not something he would have earned as a B-24 Flight Engineer.

[Marc Garlasco]

Thanks gents!

[Allan H.]

I once had a WWII AAF veteran call the aircrew wing a "Tech Sergeant's wing." I didn't understand what he was meaning as I had seen Aircrew wings worn by other ranks. He said that in his squadron (maybe even group?) that E-5 and E-6 Aerial Gunners wore AG wings and that the higher ranked NCO's wore aircrew wings. He further explained that the lower ranked guys manned the guns, and the higher ranked guys ran other equipment like the radio. 

 

Nothing concrete, but I always thought it was an interesting anecdote from a WWII vet.

Allan

[MikeK]

I have a grouping to a Staff Sergeant who was a nose turret gunner in B24s flying out of Italy in 1944 (449th BG). The only wing in the group is a clutch back Sterling Air Crew badge.

[5thwingmarty]

The type of wing issued to the gunners (aircrew or aerial gunner) might also be a factor of which school they went to.  We have one of my uncle's wings and he only had aerial gunner wings.  I believe he went through gunnery training in Colorado or Texas.  None of my gunnery school class books show the types of wings issued by the schools, but the later Tyndall books include diagrams of both aircrew and aerial gunner wings.

 

[Tesla]

Weiman actually became an officer and his Captain's bars were in the grouping and probably explains the observer wing.   I have a picture of the entire grouping but am hesitant to post it because someone else bought the entire set and his A2 jacket.   The Vultures unit patch is outstanding.  I'm sure the wing he wore into Normandy was the aircrew wing and the FE was later as has been stated.  I haven't done any additional research past him being in the 446th BG.

[pfrost]

This is a grouping of photos to an 8th AAF gunner (TSgt Wellman).  It seems that he wore AC wings on his combat patch (I suspect the photos are towards the end of the war). 

 

After the war, you can see him wearing an NS Meyer 2 inch flight engineer wing.  Also Alan's comment about Tech Sgt aircrew wings is interesting in light of what he is wearing.

 

There seems to have been some wide latitude between what the various squadrons and groups allowed their men to wear.  I used to participate on the old B24 forum and would hear stories from the vets. Guys flying in Europe had different perspectives from guys flying in the Pacific or out of Italy on what they would wear and what they were interested in talking about.  It could even depend on the captain of the aircraft -- one guy said his pilot was a stickler for protocol and would insist on all sorts of "plane and crew inspections" before the flight.  He wouldn't let them wear any squadron patches because he thought if they got shot down, the Germans would get some intel.  Another guy said his pilots would only be seen on the day of the mission and would hardly talk to the crew at all--most days the copilot was a raging alcoholic and totally drung and one morning just waked out into the field and killed himself before a big mission.  One guy told me about some resentment that some of the squadrons had for the "Hollywood" groups... those squadrons that got a lot of press.  He mentioned that if you were in a premium high visibility squadron, the CO and XO would frequently come around and ensure that the nose art, squadron patches and flight jackets were PG, because the brass were worried that some knucklehead was going to go out in town with an X-rated pinup girl painted on the back of his A2 and rile up the civilians.  He also suggested that part of the "combat blue" patch was more an ego thing for some groups than others--not all the squadrons used them.  Frankly he said that the girls were already lonely (their boys were already in France fighting) and most of them were hungry. He said to me, that if you wanted a date, not a single young lady really cared what you had on your uniform if you had a box of nylons and some tinned peaches to share! 

 

Interestingly, almost none of the guys (with one exception) ever told me that they paid any attention to the wings. The old times (guys who were in theater early in the war) had mostly lost any idea of "romance" in flying daylight bombing missions into Germany... remember the chance of getting shot down, captured and/or killed was almost 100% for those early crews.  New crews were mostly scared and just hoping to survive.  So worrying about the "cool" insignia was very low on their radar.  A hot meal, drinking some warm beer, maybe stealing some kisses from an English girl and getting home in one piece were more than enough to keep them busy.  I think as collectors we put a lot more stock into these things in 2021 than the average 23 year old service man put into it in 1944

 

Still, a fair number of vets told me that for the trip home, getting a nice bedazzled uniform to show off in at the local VFW hall was something that many of the guys did indulge.  I have a great story from a family friend who was attached to the 2nd AD as a quarter master.  After the VE day, when they were getting ready to rotate home, he went out shopping in London to get something nice to wear and found a store that provide uniforms to the Royal Family.  So he bought some jazzy leather boots using up all his savings.  When he got them, the were so poorly fitted that he couldn't really wear them because they hurt so much... but being a boy of the depression, he ended up going on the big march through London with them on -- I have a photo somewhere of him and he is obviously in serious pain, but you can see the boots!  When he died, his wife gave me the boots!  Never threw them away, but that was the only thing he kept from his time in the service.  Bad fitting boots made by the haberdasher to the Prince of Wales.

[Allan H.]

Patrick! No photo of the boots?!?!

 

Great photos of the veteran. Thanks for sharing them.

 

Allan

[pfrost]

I don't want to steal the thread, but I can take a quick snap of them later.  My friend, Bob, was a HUGE Anglophile and loved anything related to the UK.  So the idea of having some boots made by the same firm that made the boots for the Prince of Wales, really turned him on.  They were also very good friends with some of the later leaders of the USAF, including Jimmy Doolittle.  I missed meeting General Doolittle who had been invited to attend my friend's X-mas party in the 80's or 90's.  But it was close to when he died, and he was just to sick to attend.  The thing is that my friend's Bob and Ruth (Russ met Ruthie at a few UCLA football games) were good friends with the Doolittles and had I been collecting wings at that time, they probably could have gotten some wings or patches from General Doolittle.  By all accounts he was a really nice fellow.  I did get a signed Xmas card from him, though.

 

Bob was a big name dropper (he was also friends with Jimmy Stewart via the 2AD association), AND was a collector of autographs.  At one point as a kid (in the mid 20-30's or so), he wrote a letter to Lord Baden-Powell (the founder of the Boy Scouts) asking for his autograph.  He got a letter back from Baden-Powell that basically said, autograph collecting was a hobby for little girls, not boys and he should do out and do something more masculine (pretty much the exact words!).  Then signed the letter... So Bob had it framed and kept it on his wall next to his other autographs of significant Royal family and British notables!  Not to bad for Jewish boy who grew up working in the garment district of Mid-Wilshire, Los Angeles.

They always said that Jimmy Stewart was a prince of a fellow.  Just like you saw on the movies AND he really did fly combat missions during the war.  It seemed that Jimmy liked to donate his wings to various charities... and then we get more wings to donate again to various charities.  They thought very highly of Jimmy Stewart.

 

Ruthie's first husband was a B24 pilot in the 15th AAF and saw a fair amount of combat. Sadly he brought back some demons and took his own life a few years after the war ended.  She willed me his uniform after she died, so I am the proud caretaker now.  He was one who put his stuff away and never wanted to ever look at it again.

 

What was nice as a novice collector is that I could talk to them about some of my ideas.  Bob wasn't a flyer, but Ruthie had been married to one. She had some interesting stories about Pancho Barnes and Chuck Yeager (and some of the famous test pilots out at Edwards).  I also had a chance to talk to some of their USAF friends. As I said, most were very bemused that I was even collecting wings.  Most of their memories of WWII were more mundane.

 

[pfrost]

Opps Ruthie's husband was a navigator on B24;s not a pilot. But you get my drift.

[Barbara Schultz]

As a collector of autographs and similar artifacts, I enjoyed your posting.  Attaching a Doolittle item here.

[pfrost]

That is probably referencing Poncho Barnes Happy Bottom Riding Vlub out nest Edwards AFB. Great piece 

[rathbonemuseum.com]

Pancho. Pancho Barnes. Or she'll give you a knuckle sandwich.

[rustywings]

21 hours ago, Barbara Schultz said:

As a collector of autographs and similar artifacts, I enjoyed your posting.  Attaching a Doolittle item here.

Hello Barbara... What an honor and privilege it is to have you join us here on the Forum and share one of your aviation collectibles with us!

 

Russ

 

(It’s my opinion... and I’m certain the same opinion of numerous aviation historians and collectors, that Barbara Schultz is the foremost authority, lecturer and author on the life of Pancho Barnes and her footprint on early Southern California Aviation History!)

 

[Barbara Schultz]

Thank you for the kind words.  We have many artifacts from Pancho's stepmother as well as from Bill Barnes.

[rathbonemuseum.com]

It's nice when a real scholar comes to hang out with us! Welcome Barbara!

[Barbara Schultz]

Thanks!

[TheCrustyBosun]

Pancho Barnes was an amazing person and well worth looking into for those unaware of her story. I always liked that the real Chuck Yeager played the bartender at Pancho’s in the movie The Right Stuff.  Oh, to be a fly on the wall around Edwards back then…