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Special Forces SSI: 1960s vs 1980s


Amateur Vietnam Collector
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Amateur Vietnam Collector
On 3/24/2021 at 11:31 PM, patches said:

 

Two questions (please see screenshot from the Official Army Register for the United States): 

 

1.  Does anyone know what the "IN" stand for in the "Basic Branch" column next to Peder C Lund?

2.  Which column, if any, corresponds to the date in which the enlisted men entered service?   I think it would be the "Basic Pay Entry Date", but I'm not sure.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Amateur Vietnam Collector said:

 

Two questions (please see screenshot from the Official Army Register for the United States): 

 

1.  Does anyone know what the "IN" stand for in the "Basic Branch" column next to Peder C Lund?

2.  Which column, if any, corresponds to the date in which the enlisted men entered service?   I think it would be the "Basic Pay Entry Date", but I'm not sure.

 

 

image.png.cb45906de441aee84959514ce78c5af5.png

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IN stands for INFANTRY, Registers from year to year may differ in the way they are complied, here in this year yes it is the date one enters service.

 

An interesting aside for you and other members, see the AV Basic Branch for Lund Paul E the Warrant Officer, that stands for Aviation, the army had no Aviation Branch, wouldn't have one till what, 1983, you see this AV in these registers throughout the 60s, for Warrants, we guess they truly wanted to distinguish the pilots in these registers of the day.

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Amateur Vietnam Collector
On 4/3/2021 at 2:51 PM, patches said:

That's It Baby!

What I didn’t mention the other day was that when I got the shirt it had a lot of holes and patched holes. Can you believe that?   I started a new topic in uniforms about holes in uniforms. 

 

F1E4BF1B-50BF-4B1E-821F-BAE7AC46FFF6.jpeg

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  • 3 months later...
Amateur Vietnam Collector

Hi All, 

 

Before I spend $450 on a uniform on eBay, I’d like your help.  I realize I might be advertising it, such that one of you will buy it 🙂, but I’m afraid to buy it otherwise.  I have two questions about the uniform.

1.  Does the special forces badge look to be cut edged, which would be consistent with the early 1960s?

2.  The DSA number is DSA-1-2397-63- C.  This would seem to indicate it was manufactured in 1963, which is consistent with a Type 1 tropical jacket.  However, according to the DSA dating chart I have, it should end in E-6Y with Y indicating the year? Does anyone know why this would be?  Thanks! 

 

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A5DB23A0-E1F2-4CF4-948F-1389DFF65650.jpeg

A5D1FD67-C6C0-4BB5-AB3C-94F7CBBBAA4B.jpeg

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It seems ok from a distance, if you could from now on post the Ebay Links of items you seen, because there usually is more photos of the item, which lends itself to further examination. As far as the price? 

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Amateur Vietnam Collector
13 minutes ago, patches said:

It seems ok from a distance, if you could from now on post the Ebay Links of items you seen, because there usually is more photos of the item, which lends itself to further examination. As far as the price? 

Here is the eBay link.  Do you think the price is too high?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164980441508

 

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Amateur Vietnam Collector
On 3/21/2021 at 9:45 PM, Tonomachi said:

Hard to tell from these photos but it looks like the 1960s era SF SSI and tab is cut edged while the 1980s SF SSI and tab are merrowed edged.  Now the merrowed edged SF SSI goes back to the late 1960s but in this photograph it is listed as a 1980s manufactured piece.  The 1960s manufactured SF SSI in your photograph looks cut edge and is embroidered onto a dark blue colored base cloth which I believe they stared manufacturing in 1958.  There is even an earlier cut edge SF SSI that is embroidered onto a light tan or Khaki colored base cloth that were the original patches that came out in 1955.  Some people say that this is not the case that both the cut edge on tan and cut edge on dark blue were manufactured during the same time period and the difference was based solely on what base material the manufacture had at the time they were making a particular batch of patches.

 

 

 

 

Hi Tonimachi,

I have another special forces badge I’d like your opinion on as to whether it is cut edged or merrowed.  I believe it is cut edged. Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

2FDFCA00-8354-455D-AC29-ACF627970315.jpeg

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Thanks for posting the link.   The following is just my opinion as I am not an expert on Vietnam War era uniforms.   There are times when you locate a uniform where there is just no doubt in your mind that it looks authentic and there are other times where you come across a uniform where there is just something about it that worries you but you just can't put your finger on why you have these doubts.   This uniform gives me that feeling of doubt.  The uniform itself is highly sought after being an authentic early period exposed button jungle jacket.   All the insignia looks authentic to the period especially the silk South Vietnamese made master paratrooper wing however I could be wrong but it doesn't seem to match the amount of wear on the label inside of the neck (see photo).  Maybe I'm wrong as the label will usually have more wear due to the constant rubbing against the neck with lots of sweat in the humid climate of South Vietnam.  This label has almost come loose and is frayed on all four sides indicating a lot of repeated laundering and wear.   These patches just seem to be too vibrant to my eye for this amount of wear and repeated laundering.  I would also expect all the patches to be pressed down more and have a flatter profile after repeated laundering and ironing.  I would worry that the insignia was sewn onto this uniform in their correct spots afterwards to basically deceive.   Again I could be wrong but there is another similar special forces uniform for bid by the same seller with the name tape of MONTEZ (164980442082).  I have more doubts about this uniform because it has what looks like a post war US made South Vietnamese master paratrooper wing sewn above the right pocket  (see photo).  Now compare the wing on this uniform with a known post war wing currently being sold on eBay (link attached).  They look the same to me.  Now I guess you could argue that yes it is a post war wing that the veteran probably sewed to his Vietnam War era uniform after the war.  You only encounter these wings sewn on post war uniforms by soldiers authorized to wear them but were no longer able to purchase the South Vietnamese made wings being unavailable anymore so replacements were made by an insignia company in the US.  Again I could be wrong but I personally wouldn't take a chance for this kind of money.  Hopefully others more experienced in uniform collecting of this era will speak up and give their opinions.

 

   https://www.ebay.com/itm/321879491514?hash=item4af18343ba:g:LYIAAMXQdohRFPt9

 

s-l1600 (16).jpg

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53 minutes ago, Amateur Vietnam Collector said:

Hi Tonimachi,

I have another special forces badge I’d like your opinion on as to whether it is cut edged or merrowed.  I believe it is cut edged. Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

2FDFCA00-8354-455D-AC29-ACF627970315.jpeg

Yes this is an early cut edge authentic SF Grp SSI.

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Amateur Vietnam Collector
10 minutes ago, Tonomachi said:

Thanks for posting the link.   The following is just my opinion as I am not an expert on Vietnam War era uniforms.   There are times when you locate a uniform where there is just no doubt in your mind that it looks authentic and there are other times where you come across a uniform where there is just something about it that worries you but you just can't put your finger on why you have these doubts.   This uniform gives me that feeling of doubt.  The uniform itself is highly sought after being an authentic early period exposed button jungle jacket.   All the insignia looks authentic to the period especially the silk South Vietnamese made master paratrooper wing however I could be wrong but it doesn't seem to match the amount of wear on the label inside of the neck (see photo).  Maybe I'm wrong as the label will usually have more wear due to the constant rubbing against the neck with lots of sweat in the humid climate of South Vietnam.  This label has almost come loose and is frayed on all four sides indicating a lot of repeated laundering and wear.   These patches just seem to be too vibrant to my eye for this amount of wear and repeated laundering.  I would also expect all the patches to be pressed down more and have a flatter profile after repeated laundering and ironing.  I would worry that the insignia was sewn onto this uniform in their correct spots afterwards to basically deceive.   Again I could be wrong but there is another similar special forces uniform for bid by the same seller with the name tape of MONTEZ (164980442082).  I have more doubts about this uniform because it has what looks like a post war US made South Vietnamese master paratrooper wing sewn above the right pocket  (see photo).  Now compare the wing on this uniform with a known post war wing currently being sold on eBay (link attached).  They look the same to me.  Now I guess you could argue that yes it is a post war wing that the veteran probably sewed to his Vietnam War era uniform after the war.  You only encounter these wings sewn on post war uniforms by soldiers authorized to wear them but were no longer able to purchase the South Vietnamese made wings being unavailable anymore so replacements were made by an insignia company in the US.  Again I could be wrong but I personally wouldn't take a chance for this kind of money.  Hopefully others more experienced in uniform collecting of this era will speak up and give their opinions.

 

   https://www.ebay.com/itm/321879491514?hash=item4af18343ba:g:LYIAAMXQdohRFPt9

 

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You have been extremely helpful!  I guess you can sum it up as “If it’s too good to be true, it probably is.”  After all,  if it were authentic, it would probably be in a museum.  Thank you!!!

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I don’t get a warm fuzzy feeling on this one… od green material is a bit faded but patches look too bright, no loose threads, etc., the white name tag is very white and the black not even faded. The wear of the jacket just doesn’t seem to match the lack of wear on the patches.??

 

There appears to be a “ghost” shadow just barely below the AIRBORNE tab…. and perhaps some stitch holes.

 

If you had the jacket in hand you could check out the inside where the patches are sewn.  You could ask the seller a few more pics.

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3 hours ago, digi-shots said:

I don’t get a warm fuzzy feeling on this one… od green material is a bit faded but patches look too bright, no loose threads, etc., the white name tag is very white and the black not even faded. The wear of the jacket just doesn’t seem to match the lack of wear on the patches.??

 

There appears to be a “ghost” shadow just barely below the AIRBORNE tab…. and perhaps some stitch holes.

 

If you had the jacket in hand you could check out the inside where the patches are sewn.  You could ask the seller a few more pics.

I noticed that too, a ghosting of a TAB, like one was there, so perhaps the SF Arowhead was once there too, and perhaps new ones were sewn there to replace them.

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9 minutes ago, patches said:

I noticed that too, a ghosting of a TAB, like one was there, so perhaps the SF Arowhead was once there too, and perhaps new ones were sewn there to replace them.

I thought the same thing… maybe got promoted or just wanted new patches… but, why not get a new fresh jungle jacket while you’re at it.

 

The seller has two j jackets with the same crisp white name tag….  They also have quite a few nice items listed, but I didn’t see any bids on any of them.

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Amateur Vietnam Collector
5 minutes ago, digi-shots said:

I thought the same thing… maybe got promoted or just wanted new patches… but, why not get a new fresh jungle jacket while you’re at it.

 

The seller has two j jackets with the same crisp white name tag….  They also have quite a few nice items listed, but I didn’t see any bids on any of them.

Thank you, gentlemen.  I never would have thought of such things.  Even though I love collecting them, this uniform business may be too complicated for me.  The only way I know how to learn is to read posts on this forum and to continue asking you gentlemen about uniforms I find on eBay.  When I have a question about a uniform on eBay, should I post a new thread or post on a relevant old thread, like I did with this one?  

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4 hours ago, Amateur Vietnam Collector said:

Thank you, gentlemen.  I never would have thought of such things.  Even though I love collecting them, this uniform business may be too complicated for me.  The only way I know how to learn is to read posts on this forum and to continue asking you gentlemen about uniforms I find on eBay.  When I have a question about a uniform on eBay, should I post a new thread or post on a relevant old thread, like I did with this one?  

I guess a related topic of yours will alright, one you started, because starting a whole bunch of scattered topics will get weary, and adding a ebay item that may or may not be legit to an existing topic posted by other members who probably posted a legit item, will be inappropriate.

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Amateur Vietnam Collector
7 hours ago, patches said:

I guess a related topic of yours will alright, one you started, because starting a whole bunch of scattered topics will get weary, and adding a ebay item that may or may not be legit to an existing topic posted by other members who probably posted a legit item, will be inappropriate.

Copy that.  Thanks.

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22 hours ago, Amateur Vietnam Collector said:

Hi All, 

 

Before I spend $450 on a uniform on eBay, I’d like your help.  I realize I might be advertising it, such that one of you will buy it 🙂, but I’m afraid to buy it otherwise.  I have two questions about the uniform.

1.  Does the special forces badge look to be cut edged, which would be consistent with the early 1960s?

2.  The DSA number is DSA-1-2397-63- C.  This would seem to indicate it was manufactured in 1963, which is consistent with a Type 1 tropical jacket.  However, according to the DSA dating chart I have, it should end in E-6Y with Y indicating the year? Does anyone know why this would be?  Thanks! 

 

C92EE3CA-C05B-4314-83F0-AACCA750E49F.jpeg

11F5C838-CCE0-445F-8CB0-B40E667E42E9.jpeg

A5DB23A0-E1F2-4CF4-948F-1389DFF65650.jpeg

A5D1FD67-C6C0-4BB5-AB3C-94F7CBBBAA4B.jpeg

I would be asking the seller for pics of inside of the shirt where the insignia is sewn

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Amateur Vietnam Collector
10 hours ago, 63 RECON said:

I would be asking the seller for pics of inside of the shirt where the insignia is sewn

 

22 hours ago, patches said:

Seen the link, doesn't post insides were the patches are sewn, hard to tell now.

 

22 hours ago, digi-shots said:

I thought the same thing… maybe got promoted or just wanted new patches… but, why not get a new fresh jungle jacket while you’re at it.

 

The seller has two j jackets with the same crisp white name tag….  They also have quite a few nice items listed, but I didn’t see any bids on any of them.

Hi Gentlemen,

 

Here are pictures of the inside of the jacket where the insignia are sewn on.  Are there any lessons I can learn from these pictures?

 

6DBAB791-8C2B-42EE-B50E-8278FAD30619.jpeg

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EE25817E-F15A-4A5A-86B5-490825AD4BC0.jpeg

A0F41609-3B94-47B4-9A85-A3558079D6B9.jpeg

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5 hours ago, Amateur Vietnam Collector said:

 

 

Hi Gentlemen,

 

Here are pictures of the inside of the jacket where the insignia are sewn on.  Are there any lessons I can learn from these pictures?

 

6DBAB791-8C2B-42EE-B50E-8278FAD30619.jpeg

54553A29-BC79-40CF-859E-B52865D68EA7.jpeg

EE25817E-F15A-4A5A-86B5-490825AD4BC0.jpeg

A0F41609-3B94-47B4-9A85-A3558079D6B9.jpeg

On ZOOMING In, most of the insignia has been sewn on over previous insignias.

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Amateur Vietnam Collector
9 minutes ago, patches said:

On ZOOMING In, most of the insignia has been sewn on over previous insignias.

It’s sad there are dishonest people out there, especially when it involves a piece of history that honors veterans.

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Amateur Vietnam Collector

So, I bought this on eBay for $30, since it’s dated 1963 with a special forces insignia.  It’s not perfect, but it’s what I’ve been looking for.  Why are the name tapes always missing?  I can’t figure that out.

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0A500FC3-C843-4ABA-8F52-C066F1A7718E.jpeg

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On 7/28/2021 at 10:47 AM, patches said:

On ZOOMING In, most of the insignia has been sewn on over previous insignias.

not a forum member is it?

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