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Special Forces SSI: 1960s vs 1980s


Amateur Vietnam Collector
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Amateur Vietnam Collector

Hi All,

 

 I’m trying to figure out if there are any differences between the special forces SSI of the 1960s and 1980s.  Please see picture. I can’t discern a difference. 

4F419885-C4DD-491D-BAB0-5584321507D7.png

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tredhed2

Your image is not the best, but it appears that the top SSI is a flat edge or cut edge. Merrowed edged patches like the SSI on the bottom, came around ca. 1968. 

 

Another diff not readily apparent is that many SSI made in the 80s ? Or 90s? Had plastic layered on the back....which has nothing to do with the edges you provide.

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Tonomachi

Hard to tell from these photos but it looks like the 1960s era SF SSI and tab is cut edged while the 1980s SF SSI and tab are merrowed edged.  Now the merrowed edged SF SSI goes back to the late 1960s but in this photograph it is listed as a 1980s manufactured piece.  The 1960s manufactured SF SSI in your photograph looks cut edge and is embroidered onto a dark blue colored base cloth which I believe they stared manufacturing in 1958.  There is even an earlier cut edge SF SSI that is embroidered onto a light tan or Khaki colored base cloth that were the original patches that came out in 1955.  Some people say that this is not the case that both the cut edge on tan and cut edge on dark blue were manufactured during the same time period and the difference was based solely on what base material the manufacture had at the time they were making a particular batch of patches.

 

 

 

 

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Longhorn92

Here’s a riker I have showing the cut edge khaki based one, far left with early teal blue tab. Then a different khaki based cut edge, then a merrowed edge version. 

67645F16-DAD5-4606-BF9D-768EAB355945.jpeg

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Amateur Vietnam Collector

Based on what you told me, is the SF SSI in this picture cut edged or marrow edged?  Just trying to date this patch.

Perhaps it’s not the best picture, but it’s all I’ve got until the shirt arrives in the mail.6E63DE48-E227-49C5-A780-BE2FCD6071DB.jpeg.51c93cb4994ebe94194b8cae6846c94f.jpeg

 

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Amateur Vietnam Collector

To add to my post above, here is a slightly different angle. It shows some unraveling at the bottom.

68592B54-E322-45BF-8640-060E39273746.png

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Tonomachi

It is hard to tell from this photograph as it looks like the border is slightly raised and pressed down due to repeated laundering which would indicate a merrowed edge.  However I also see a darker blue edging that you would see on a cut edge patch just like the airborne tab right above it.   I think I saw this jacket for sale on eBay and it looked legitimate except as I recall the buttons on each chest pocket looked replaced as they didn't match the rest of the buttons down the center which were the older flat buttons.

 

Just saw your second photo and it is an edged cut patch like the one marked "1960s Manufacture" in your first photograph.  

 

 

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Amateur Vietnam Collector

Thank you so much!

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Amateur Vietnam Collector

I purchased the shirt off Facebook marketplace. Here are some pictures.

CAE76EB8-4C53-4277-A28E-A0F12A86CA2D.jpeg

3862D8CB-392A-4493-AFD4-4F59511111AC.png

7004F2D3-7EDF-45FF-965F-F096360D241F.jpeg

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vintageproductions

The patch on the shirt is 60's.

 

It is flat edge and also has the slightly darker blue border that you will find on 60's Special Forces and 101st airborne patches.

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Amateur Vietnam Collector

Wouldn’t that be something!  The guy who sold it to me said he bought it from an antique store. Maybe I can try asking the antique store where they got it. Thanks for the lead.

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Amateur Vietnam Collector
6 hours ago, patches said:

At the bottom of your message, it looks like you copied and pasted his name from a list.  Is there a database out there that tells you everyone that served, both living and those who have passed?

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patches
7 hours ago, Amateur Vietnam Collector said:

At the bottom of your message, it looks like you copied and pasted his name from a list.  Is there a database out there that tells you everyone that served, both living and those who have passed?

It is from official United Stated Army Officer Registries, these rare books going way way back into the 19th Century, I think the earliest date is during the War of 1812, the 1813 Register for United States Army Officers, that would be Regulars not Militia, these are available to view, these only go up to the year 1 January 1969, after that year the army and the Armed Forces switch to social security numbers rather that the serial numbers, and to prevent fraud and ID theft they unfortunately are not presented for online view.

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Amateur Vietnam Collector
2 hours ago, patches said:

It is from official United Stated Army Officer Registries, these rare books going way way back into the 19th Century, I think the earliest date is during the War of 1812, the 1813 Register for United States Army Officers, that would be Regulars not Militia, these are available to view, these only go up to the year 1 January 1969, after that year the army and the Armed Forces switch to social security numbers rather that the serial numbers, and to prevent fraud and ID theft they unfortunately are not presented for online view.

Hi Patches,

 

Do you mind letting me know the year of the registry you found him in?

 

Thanks,

Josh

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patches
11 hours ago, Amateur Vietnam Collector said:

Hi Patches,

 

Do you mind letting me know the year of the registry you found him in?

 

Thanks,

Josh

1967, registries for each year are as of 1 January of the year, so if you are looking for a officer who was commissioned during the course of say 1969, say March 1969 he will not be in the 1969 register, he will show for the first time in the 1970 register.

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Amateur Vietnam Collector

Hi All, thank you for all your responses to my thread.  So, I’m confused about something.  The attached chart (insignia #23) shows that the “three lightning bolt” patch associated with the 5th special forces group, yet the 5th special forces group has their own insignia (picture attached).  What insignia did the 5th special group wear during Vietnam?

D9A782D4-92F7-45FA-BD10-0E955F33900F.jpeg

D1B7B65A-645E-4DEA-BAD9-85F31E456874.png

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patches
5 hours ago, Amateur Vietnam Collector said:

Hi All, thank you for all your responses to my thread.  So, I’m confused about something.  The attached chart (insignia #23) shows that the “three lightning bolt” patch associated with the 5th special forces group, yet the 5th special forces group has their own insignia (picture attached).  What insignia did the 5th special group wear during Vietnam?

D9A782D4-92F7-45FA-BD10-0E955F33900F.jpeg

D1B7B65A-645E-4DEA-BAD9-85F31E456874.png

That bottom one is their Beet Flash. Offices wore their Rank insignia on it, while the men wore the Special Forces Unit Crest.

mkure.PNG

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patches
3 hours ago, patches said:

That bottom one is their Beet Flash. Offices wore their Rank insignia on it, while the men wore the Special Forces Unit Crest.

mkure.PNG

 

8718212_1932536.jpg

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Amateur Vietnam Collector

Thank you very much.  It turns out I was confused on several items.  Please correct me if I’m wrong.

 

1. I thought only the green berets wore berets. It turns out that, prior to 2011, a black beret were worn by all US Army troops, unless they were approved to wear a distinctive beret.

 

2. I thought the beret flash was a green beret symbol.  Rather, it is a shield-shaped insignia that is attached to a all berets.  The embroidered designs of the Army's beret flashes represent the heraldic colors and patterns of a unit with a unique mission or represent the Army overall. 

 

3. I thought the 5th special forces group was the green berets. Rather, the term “green beret” is a colloquial term for all Army special forces groups, which includes the 5th as well as six other groups.  In addition to the green beret, all special forces groups wear the teal with three lightning bolt shoulder sleeve insignia.

 

Am I correct in all this?

 

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patches

1. I thought only the green berets wore berets. It turns out that, prior to 2011, a black beret were worn by all US Army troops, unless they were approved to wear a distinctive beret.

 

During the period of your interest, the 1960s, yes only the Special Forces wore the beret officially, but as the 60s came to a close the new Ranger Companies wear a Black one, Black ones really start to be worn a little earkier by a host of units, and not just Army.

 

Go through this big topic for the whole story, berets, flashes and all.

 

 

 

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Amateur Vietnam Collector
On 3/24/2021 at 11:31 PM, patches said:


So, I received my shirt today and the following is written in marker above where the DSA tag usually is (it’s missing): L-9383.  Has anyone seen anything like this before?

644D4D7B-8581-4770-B323-CFBCBDA087B8.jpeg

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Amateur Vietnam Collector

The number L-9383 may correspond to the last four digits beside Peder Lund's name.  The number ends in either 5383 or 9383.  I'll have to look it up in the registry to be sure. 

 

 

image.png.02b9b3120300d1cf2d4351f5bafc2b55.png

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patches
On 4/2/2021 at 1:56 PM, Amateur Vietnam Collector said:

The number L-9383 may correspond to the last four digits beside Peder Lund's name.  The number ends in either 5383 or 9383.  I'll have to look it up in the registry to be sure. 

 

 

image.png.02b9b3120300d1cf2d4351f5bafc2b55.png

That's It Baby!

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