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A new find in the early "cloud pattern" wing - aircrew - but how?


rathbonemuseum.com
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rathbonemuseum.com

We have discussed this cloud pattern wing before. I call cloud pattern because of the distinctive marks in the shoulder that are very circular and unlike other layered shoulder patterns. Wing is early, Cliff Presley's model on Bob's site is marked as "1919 with drop in catch." It has no thin lines in the shield. It features a drop in catch, a heavy Hercules-style with a heavy pin. I have found a second one with a later replacement catch. But today I have found a most unusual aircrew wing in the same pattern, also with the heavy Hercules-style drop in catch. Thing is, the aircrew wing was established in 1942! I still have no idea whom the manufacturer was but I thought this was something really cool and odd. Can't explain it other than they still had the parts lying around?

AE0CCEA2-A481-48D7-8428-91BC6163497A_1_105_c.jpeg

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EB2F1384-E266-4408-9433-05E5EF62636E_1_105_c.jpeg

9D4D6872-2B67-4DD5-8C2B-5352F4F823A9_1_105_c.jpeg

A52B61B1-4656-433A-AA60-D999F41F2E63_1_105_c.jpeg

B4A2C2B9-1684-4A44-B985-2BE162686D72_1_105_c.jpeg

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There are some other threads on this pattern.  Check out post 8 on this thread.

 

I am not 100% sure where I saw the reference to an early pilot (LtCol Harold Evans Hartney) linked to this wing.  That being said, I aslo do not recall there being any SPECIFIC proof that wing is one that was made that early (1919).  Clearly massive catches and such were also being used in ca1942 for the air crew wing.

 

My sense is that there is some dealer lore (aka old timer military show tire kicking) going on.  The old "Ron Burkey told me at the GW in 1994 that this was a 1919 vintage wing" (not to pick on Ron).  Its possible that the wing pattern was made in 1919 and then someone made a brand new die in 1942 or so using the same basic pattern.   OR its also possible that some unknown manufacturer made a couple of dies in 1942. Made a few and we have just been assuming that the pilot wing was very early.  No way of knowing at this point, unless Marty or Chris have some sort of proof that they will pull out to prove me wrong.

 

It kind of like the lore that Noble wings are only being 20's and 30's vintage... but I think it was Marty who found '40's dated Noble catalogs showing the wings. Also there seems to be some evidence that Noble wings were used by CC Mosely well into the mid-war range.

 

To my mind, the fittings used on wings are a good approximation, but not absolute proof of vintage.

 

ALL of that aside, I sure do love that wing pattern. Cool beans.

 

 

 

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rathbonemuseum.com

Thanks for remembering the thread Patrick. You read all the same stuff i do about drop-in catches, hercules catches, and other finding lore. 

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I have always loved this pattern of wing.  And had been looking for it a long time.  I think sometimes collectors are too quick to try to classify things in boxes (pre war, post war etc) that really never existed.  That being said, what a handsome wing it is.

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4 hours ago, rathbonemuseum.com said:

We have discussed this cloud pattern wing before. I call cloud pattern because of the distinctive marks in the shoulder that are very circular and unlike other layered shoulder patterns. Wing is early, Cliff Presley's model on Bob's site is marked as "1919 with drop in catch." It has no thin lines in the shield. It features a drop in catch, a heavy Hercules-style with a heavy pin. I have found a second one with a later replacement catch. But today I have found a most unusual aircrew wing in the same pattern, also with the heavy Hercules-style drop in catch. Thing is, the aircrew wing was established in 1942! I still have no idea whom the manufacturer was but I thought this was something really cool and odd. Can't explain it other than they still had the parts lying around?

B4A2C2B9-1684-4A44-B985-2BE162686D72_1_105_c.jpeg

 

Tod, I've always like that pilot badge on Bob Schwartz's website so I tried comparing your Aircrew badge with it and there are a few (minor) differences between the two. Below, I've highlighted two areas of special interest on both of them for a closer look.  I also found a few other sections on both badges that are not exactly the same and I don't think my eyes are fooling me but a closer look with a response from a few others would be appreciated.

 

 

 

   

1a Presley Front.jpg

2a Forum Front.jpg

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5thwingmarty

My pilot wing is about 3-1/32" in span, while the aircrew is right at 3" and they both have the same level of vaulting when viewed on edge.  There are subtle differences in the feather details but overall they match very closely.  The fine line feather details on the inner rows of feathers visible in the aircrew wing photos also closely match those on my pilot wing.  Hopefully that shows in my photo.

 

cloud front.JPG

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Interesting photos guys. I've owned several of the pilot wings and a couple of aircrews. One thing I've noticed is that many of the pilot wings appear to have been struck from a very worn die. The sterling is faded, the details at the tops of the shield are soft, and in a few cases I've seen the sterling mark so faded that the company struck a recessed sterling over the raised sterling mark. My theory has always been that perhaps the worn pilot die was reworked and made into an aircrew wing? The aircrews always look sloppy on the reverse around the center area. What do you guys think? Is it possible the pilot die was reworked?

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rathbonemuseum.com

I also thought the same thing in the aircrew wing, Mike. Almost hand hammered on the back. And i think the differences in what Cliff points out...die wear could be the culprit. From a design aesthetic, the style has more in common with the earlier wing types than those most common issued at graduation in WWII.

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5thwingmarty

The feather details are close enough I can imagine a die being redone, but I don't know it is really possible to do.  They would have had to cut the center Pilot shield away from the wings, then attach and blend the wings to the new Aircrew center, and have the die be strong enough to not break where the bits had been joined.

 

I didn't recall seeing any of the pilot wings having such a worn Sterling mark or an incised Sterling mark, but just noticed the one on Bob's site in the WWII section has the incised mark while the one in the between the wars section has the raised mark.

 

On my Aircrew wing, there are the remains of a raised Sterling mark at an angle near the center of the back, and there is an incised mark as well near the top center.

 

Cloud aircrew rear.JPG

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