Denim navy work pants- date?? ID: Civilian Denim

[jdb]

Are these World War Two or earlier?  Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. 

[vintageproductions]

They look civilian.

 

If they were military I would put them pre-1900's.

[jdb]

Thanks. I was just assuming navy as they have that style. I will see if I can find anything civilian to match. Thanks again. 

[M422A1]

By the stitching, they look homemade to me.  A lot of crude workmanship.  But I am no expert on these so take what I say with a grain of salt.

[sigsaye]

Other than being a shade of blue, there is nothing Navy about these. They look like someone made a pair of trousers with modern fabrics, using a Civil War pattern. Honestly, I do the same thing. I live on a working far. And find 19th century clothing much more practical here. So, I use ACW patterns and make my own work clothes. Just like this. 

[sigsaye]

Not really sure why you would think these were Navy (US Navy?). The crude workmanship, back adjustment belt, suspender buttons, none a feature of USN clothing. 

[dmar836]

Likely Amish?

There is a company that sells a version of denim like that dirt cheap - like $20 - $30. I heard they were popular with the Amish. I can't remember the name of the place as it's on an old hard drive but they have a typed inventory sheet with lots of interesting vintage style clothing and accessories. Had a few pics IIRC but no closeups. I found it searching for early denim dungarees with a cinch back. I have seen them go for good money on eBay as early USN dungarees. Many have been scammed by these. Perhaps someone could post a pic of the rare early USN dungarees. My assumption is most were worn out during the depression. There is so little info out there about them that this style has been spread as what they actually were. I'm not yet convinced. Yours do look to be an old pair but I do think that was a common style of work trouser.  The hand-stitched buttonholes and the buttons both tell me they are older.

[sigsaye]

7 minutes ago, dmar836 said:

Likely Amish?

There is a company that sells a version of denim like that dirt cheap - like $20 - $30. I heard they were popular with the Amish. I can't remember the name of the place as it's on an old hard drive but they have a typed inventory sheet with lots of interesting vintage style clothing and accessories. Had a few pics IIRC but no closeups. I found it searching for early denim dungarees with a cinch back. I have seen them go for good money on eBay as early USN dungarees. Many have been scammed by these. Perhaps someone could post a pic of the rare early USN dungarees. My assumption is most were worn out during the depression. There is so little info out there about them that this style has been spread as what they actually were. I'm not yet convinced. Yours do look to be an old pair but I do think that was a common style of work trouser.  The hand-stitched buttonholes and the buttons both tell me they are older.

All the Amish I’ve seen actually wear fall front trousers.   They also do not use visible buttons. It’s a modesty thing. 
 

These were made using a Civil War Reenactor pattern. Using modern materials

[RobS.]

They have a quality hand made look. Lined waist band. extra material in the seat for adjustment. Used but very little fading. Some repairs.
Suspender buttons, no belt loops, buckle waist adjustment are all things that are not seen in US denim since the 1920's.
The shape does seem to be navy. I know the French navy used denim. Maybe it was made buy a low tech supplier like Indochina? They were heavy into textile export under the French. It seems like if it was US military or civilian, there would be tags or markings.
The key to ID may be the buttons. If they are plastic then not that old. If Bakelite or Celluloid then its old. Also see if any threads glow under blacklight. Can you show the front and back completely inside out? Rob.

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[jdb]

[jdb]

I only assumed navy as they came in a box with other military items. Not trying to make them something the are not:). Thanks for all the great information and help. 
 

 

[RobS.]

Its a little hard to tell if glowing on a picture unless a modern white thread is next to it for

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[jdb]

I am learning something this evening. 

[General Apathy]

.

Hi jdb,  I would agree with several other comments here, Vintage Productions states that if anything they have a pre 1900's style, and M422A1's statement that they are very amateurish, ( too amateurish I think ) 

 

They have been cut across the WEFT of the material and not in the standard direction that trousers are cut as in the WARP, the button hole stitching is not that of any professional button hole hand-stitcher.

 

Almost all trouser legs are cut along the length of a material roll in line with the selvedge ( edge )  this direction is the WARP. 

 

Your trouser legs have been cut across the material roll which is the WEFT, very-very unusual for factory made trousers to be cut in that direction.

 

About eighteen months ago I sold a pair of WWII USN blue denims, I have tried to find a photo of them but sorry to say I haven't been able to do so, but they were totally different to the style of yours, I don't see these as being of any quality that the military would issue. 

 

regards lewis.

 

.

 

 

 

[RobS.]

It looks like its not glowing. Is that right? What other military stuff came in the box? I also had another thought. What if a sailor off ship in a port of call wanted new pants, or if the ship needed a supply of work uniforms when far from home port. They may end up with some local made items. Some ports might even cater to these services. Rob

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[jdb]

5 minutes ago, RobS. said:

It looks like its not glowing. Is that right? What other military stuff came in the box? I also had another thought. What if a sailor off ship in a port of call wanted new pants, or if the ship needed a supply of work uniforms when far from home port. They may end up with some local made items. Some ports might even cater to these services. Rob

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk
 

There was an air Corp tunic with a Far East patch. I picked the box up near Sharpsburg, MD at an estate sale. 
It does not glow. Looking at the stitching they do look hand stitched. They could be an old pair of homemade work pants but do seem to be old. The material looks stained on the inside. 
May be not much value but still interesting. 
 

Thanks again to everyone for all the information. 

[dmar836]

Sig, You are right. Thanks and my appologies for my failed memory. The denim fall-front with the 13 buttons were the ones I was seeing sold for hundreds when they were actually ID'd as the ones I had seen for sale cheap. It was experienced USN collectors that caught it but I'm not sure I have ever actually seen WWI - 1930s dungaree trousers. Sorry for the confusion.

I think they are at least pretty neat work trousers.

JDB, What's the waist size? Might make for a good pattern. I'm sure they would make me look like Roy Underhill but I've been called worse... a lot!

Dave

 

[sigsaye]

These trousers are very poorly made. The ones I make, have no raw edges. I fell all seams and turn under all raw edges. It makes then sturdier and neater. The button holes are really sloppy. I’m almost thinking that these were someone’s first complicated sewing project. 
 

the pattern was a common 19th century pattern. It was used on both civilian and military trousers. The only difference is the picket style was a bit rare for the time. It was used, but not as much as the much more common”Mule Ear”. I prefer the Mule Ear on the ones I make for myself. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

[dmar836]

Sigsaye,

Interested in discussing your projects. I have made a few patterns of the era - actually CCC-style and USN style. I have done machine button holes and hand sewn ones. No preference really.

There was a couple year period, actually until this winter, where I wore only jeans I had made. My old 501s and 505s just needed to be worn! Just like my A-2, I was actually afraid to go too far from home at first lest they failed. Years later I'm beating them all to death with no worries!

Dave

[max0073]

Hello,

here are WW1 denim dungarees with buckle-back

Max

 

 

[dmar836]

Awesome!