506 PIR D-Day KIA Thoughts on Purple Heart Engraving

[Blacksmith]

I think that USMC heart looks pretty good, and the lack of an “R” is not a sole basis to rule it out - nor is just repeating what someone else said.

 

There are plenty of examples of mis-spelled names, missing / extra letters, etc, on known original medals.

 

If it’s not good - as others have opined - we are in trouble, and I fear that engraved US medals will start the slide that Civil War collectables did years ago.

 

There are the same mitigating factors at play, aging collector population, meaning fewer buyers and more collections getting dumped into the market.  So, shrinking demand, AND a spike in supply, all at once.  
 

Then complicate that with supposed fakes being almost indiscernible from originals, and people don’t want to take the chance.  

[Dave]

I'll let Kurt have the final say on the Marine PH, but what was picked out was:

 

1. It's missing the "R" in USMCR. Not a deal breaker, in my opinion.

2. The letters aren't blackened as a standard one would have. Personally, I'd want to see it in hand to make that call, as their photos are notoriously poor (probably for good reason).

3. The dash on the medal is only one line. That said, I included one with one line in my book, and I know that was a legit medal. However, every other one I photographed had the line made up of two individual lines. Deal breaker? Dunno. Uncomfortable? Maybe.

 

What's more important to me is that the seller is known for faking airborne helmets, D-Day clickers, multiple Army and Marine Purple Hearts, almost all of which were airborne or something else exciting. Now, you've got a Tarawa Purple Heart, which is just about as valuable as a Marine Raider. Coincidence?
 

While I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, I look at it this way: if you had a restaurant where 9 out of 10 people got food poisoning, but the food was exceptional, would you risk eating there? You may get lucky and be that 1 in 10 that doesn't get food poisoning. But then again...you might end up being one of the 90% that takes it in the gut. 

 

It might well be a genuine Purple Heart. I ALWAYS caveat my "is it good or not" with "it depends on the photos". True, a lot of their Purple Hearts wouldn't look good in hand or with other photos, so those are pretty easy. However, I've made calls incorrectly based on people's crappy photos before, and later, seeing other photos or the medal in person, my thoughts were completely different. 

 

I'll also add that it's not uncommon for people to "salt" their stock with genuine items. The famed "Chester" sold some really great Purple Hearts that were 100% legitimate. I have screenshots of his sale posts with real Purple Hearts. However, he also sold a bunch that he made in his garage (or basement or wherever). With as connected as Sparky and Bri/Brian/Briann are, they undoubtedly have access to real Purple Hearts and can easily sell good with the bad...it's what unscrupulous salesmen have done for generations...salt bad paintings/pottery/etc. with good ones in order to form a solid clientele who would swear that they "only" sell good items and that the "doubters" are either inexperienced or flat out wrong (actually watched a YouTube video about exactly this last night...) 

 

So those are my thoughts. Sure, it could be real and the photo is just bad. But do you want to drop that much coin on someone who is known to churn out fake awards? What if...and I use this as a huge "what if"...they found someone who legitimately COULD do that high end engraving. Ever seen some of the engraving on Native American jewelry? There's some beautiful stuff out there. They live in Arizona...maybe they found someone like that who could imitate the engraving. Or maybe they're using the same jeweler who other, known, high end fakers have used over the years. 

 

Dave

[scottplen]

This is why I buy off only people I trust and know ! Who have proven to be 100% ! There are great sellers on the forum who I have been in trade with for years ! 
imo the USMC Purple Heart and the D-Day are questionable . My opinion for what it’s worth ! If they were 100% why would the seller sell for less than what the real deal would be ? D-Day I’m thinking $3000 ? 
same for tarawa . I may be off in price but $1500 is a standard airborne . And sky is limit on tarawa . IMO seller put lower prices to move fast to me that is the key ! I price is too good to be true or it’s a great deal than maybe think on what right price is and look at past sales ! Dead giveaway they are not right to me ! My opinion only .

[Matt-M]

Dave has made excellent points, and many in areas where we're in agreement, especially having it in hand, as well as the restaurant analogy. To sharpen my point, unless we are able to trust our own judgement, we will be at the mercy of ones who are deemed to be "experts" or authorities on the subject, which is a dangerous path, much like TR items, where extremely rare items are "authenticated" because they "said so". If I were to have encountered this particular USMC PH at a show, or at a local flea market/antique shop, I would have very little to question about it. Even missing the "R", again, could very possibly be chalked up to "engraver oversight". I would encourage all who collect, in any area, to be more self reliant, as if you allow yourself to be swayed by "an authority" or "expert" you will be. I'm not discounting the value in asking for someone else's thoughts or opinions,  and not suggesting that you shouldn't, on the contrary, I highly recommend it, but in the end, it's your money and your responsibility to make the final decision and knowledge will always be paramount to opinion. I used to handle a brand of vintage guitars that were made in such a limited quantity, that there was a "master list" that desrcibed the details of each guitar, and the serial number that was assigned to it which matched the serialized embossed plate that was bolted onto the guitar. I have the master list, and even though the list would state that serial no. xxx34 is a pearl white Strat with 2 pickups, xxx34 is red and only 1 pickup. The guitar itself is untouched, all original, and from the original owner. Do I devalue or discount the guitar all together because everyone else will say it doesn't match the master list? No, of course not. My knowledge and experience has told me that what I have in my hand is the genuine article and that there was a mix up somewhere else. Hopefully this analogy will help define my position a bit more clearly.

[Blacksmith]

Great points Dave and Matt, and really to my point of people needing to do the reps and developing some level of autonomy and comfort on making these judgment calls - versus relying on others.

 

The over-arching problem with not doing so, is that it shrinks the circle of informed opinions, so that only a relative minority of collectors deem what is / is not original.

 

In turn, that means that most collectors are making pass / buy decisions based on someone else’s comfort-level.  Are they going to underwrite the purchase, in case it turns out bad?  I wouldn’t expect them to.  It’s your money.
 

The only slight departure that I take on the ‘food poisoning’ angle, is that it undermines the “trusted source” philosophy by its very thesis.  I think assuming every medal from a trusted dealer is original, presents similar problems to assuming all of them from the other sort is bad.  
 

The main differences there may be intentions, and whether they stand behind the purchase or not.  In a word, being trustworthy. 
 

All told, each example should be considered on its own merits - source aside.  If not, biases lead to assumptions, and that’s where problems usually start.

 

 

[Matt-M]

And if you'll all indulge me; to expand on what I experienced in the guitar collecting field, is what I can forsee happening in this arena. As I became more of an authority on which guitars were legitimate and untouched, as well as detecting which were made up of original parts, and those which were flat out fakes, more people sought my opinion. When put in a position of determining of whether a buyer would make the purchase or not based on my opinion, which was based off of my authority, which was based off of my intense study and knowledge, placed me a delicate position where my thoughts could potentially cost someone not only a sale, but also put their reputation in question. Now personally, I have no problems suffering the slings and arrows for stating my opinions, but others may not have a stomach for it, and worse, in some cases, others would use their authoritive position to sway other potential buyers away from something in question, so that they themselves could acquire it at a much lower price since it had been "tainted" by opinion, only later to surface in that person's collection as a "righteous piece". In short, "if it's in your collection, it's fake, if it's in mine it's real". Dave and others like him with the determination and perserverence to do years of research, compile, and write a book for the sake of enlightening others, not only should be commended for the undertaking and completion itself, but also for the fact that it was produced to enlighten others. I cannot stress enough that we all become more observant of what we collect, especially as with this USMC PH, as to dishonor someone who gave their life for our freedoms by faking a PH is, in my book,  beyond unscrupulous.

[ErwinRommel1940]

This thread has taken an interesting shift. I concede that the lack of an "R" is not the kiss of death, however for me, it might as well be. Too many times, the "could be" pieces have turned out to be duds that I'm comfortable avoiding anything the looks out of line. In addition, for this piece, there is more than one detail that does not follow the pattern of other known originals. There are more pieces out there that are without flaw than anyone has money, so I personally will stick with collecting those. Just my personal preference. 

 

As for the need for each collector to do their own "reps" and form their own opinions on the authenticity of items, I totally agree. However, everyone has to start somewhere. Very few, if any of us, were alive when these medals were engraved. You could go to such an extreme as to say "If you weren't there when it was engraved, how DO you know its authentic?" You don't. Documentation, records, archival paperwork and photographs can be fabricated. Seems cynical, but why do you believe that George Washington was the first president....because that is what you learned. Each of us has learned from prior collectors the knowledge we have now and I believe forums like these are a way to easily pass down that information. The days of buying directly from the veterans are mostly gone (for WW2 and earlier). For young collectors, like myself, the only way to learn how to tell good from bad is to ask the opinions of others who are more knowledgeable. One day, we'll all be dead and even our most prized pieces will be owned by someone else. Leaving them with invaluable information and opinions of those that came before them is the only way that they will be able to decipher between an original and work of their modern day scam artist.  

 

[Kurt Barickman]

Mark has had quite a reputation going back quite awhile and especially on  the airborne items. I think the Tarawa heart has lack of something in that engraving because it doesn´t appear to be wide enough or darkened enough especially because of the condition of the rest of the medal. If it is with a large lot of other questionable items I would think that answers the question for all of it. But that is only my two cents. 

 

Kurt

[Blacksmith]

Technical knowledge and critical thinking are two entirely different considerations.

 

Of course everyone gets information and opinions from others, and hopefully not just to start.  That is how the community should function.  I continue to get second / third / etc opinions on items where I don’t have as much depth, and always will.  That does come with a personal goal of independence, in the event that I do see an item at a show, auction, sale, antique store, and so forth, I can make my own decision.  Otherwise, the moment may be lost, while I’m texting and posting.

 

The point is that it may be beneficial to apply one’s own critical thinking skills to the information that you do get, and not just take a single opinion - or feature of an item, where it makes sense - as a decision point.  As an example, I don’t have to know anything about car repair to know to get a second opinion when a shop tells me I need a new transmission.  

 

 

 

 

[jeffs1130]

-BRINGING THIS BACK UP-

 

Unfortunately, his medals are still out there and being bought as originals by fellow Collectors... Helpfully this posting helps educate others and prevents further incidents of deception. 

 

[jeffs1130]

Here's another one to watch out for!

D-Day KIA...

Same engraving style, with some spur marks on some of the letters from the engraving process he uses...

Hard to see from a distance shot, but close up you'll notice something is odd! 

He also uses a rough, grease looking blacking of the letters... Not smooth like original WWII Era engravings. 

[jeffs1130]

Some better pics of the MONSON Purple Heart Medal engraving: