Help identify a WWI ribbon and badge

[jkopz]

My gr-grandfather Ed Manthey was a Corporal in company H of the 11th Infantry, 5th Division in WWI. Here he is:

 

 

This photo is a clip from a larger photo of some of the members of company H, one of two photos I have that were taken about a minute apart. As near as I can tell, the photos were taken in Esch, Luxembourg, in January 1919. I am trying to identify the ribbon he is wearing, along with what I am guessing is a metal badge. I originally thought the badge was a Marksman bar reflecting the light to look bigger, but here is the second photo:

 

 

The badge is too large to be a Marksman bar, it's taller, and an oval shape.

 

As for the ribbon, I originally thought it was just the WWI victory medal, but I'm fairly certain these pictures were taken in January 1919, and according to wikipedia, the victory medal wasn't authorized until April. The ribbon in the pictures appears to have a dark line in the center. If it helps, 9 of the 55 men in the pictures are wearing the ribbon. Unfortunately, this is the clearest depiction of it:

 

 

If anyone has any ideas about the ribbon or the badge, I'd be thrilled to hear them. Here is one more image of the ribbon, and a bonus question:

 

 

This is SGT Tom Silver, wearing the ribbon in question on the upper right. He also has his DSC, his expert rifleman medal, another mystery ribbon above that (I guess that's the bonus bonus question!), and the bonus question is: what is the round one on the right? Another shooting medal? Tom was also awarded the Italian War Cross, but not until April 14, 1919, about three months after I think this picture was taken. He was officially cited for bravery three times, once at St. Mihiel and twice in the Argonne, and eventually got a Silver Star to go with his DSC.

 

Thanks for the help!

 

[AustinO]

I would suspect your relative is wearing his Victory Ribbon next to a Marksman's badge. I cant think of anything else that it could be.

 

The second fellow could be wearing a Pistol Marksman's badge, which I believe were a bit wider. I'm sure there are some other possibilities on this one too. 

 

Sgt Silver is probably wearing a French Croix de Guerre ribbon next to the DSC, followed by a Victory Medal ribbon. An Expert Marksman's badge at center, and probably a "Team Marksman's badge" next to that (for shooting on an Army competition team, they were doing a lot of that during the occupation but could be pre-war too). 

 

Any chance you're able to show the rest of the photo? Or too large to scan/share? Would love to see it! 

[jkopz]

Thank you for your reply, and for identifying SGT Silver's Croix de Guerre and the team marksman's badge.

 

Here is the first of the two photos. They are nearly identical except this one is in better focus, and this one cuts off 2 or 3 men on the right, and the other one cuts off 2 or 3 men on the left. The two together show the whole group. Both are postcards, and I'm assuming they were outtakes sold cheaply by the photographer because neither one centered the whole group properly. It's amazing that the ribbons can be seen at all in a photograph as small as it is. I scanned it at 600dpi.

 

My gr-grandfather CPL Manthey is at the top left, with SGT Silver next to him. I've identified abut a dozen of the soldiers in the group, and I'm working to identify the rest.

 

[AustinO]

Very cool, thanks for sharing it!  I have a friend in Esch who I've worked with before on trying to identify locations in my RPPCs (photo postcards, the most common type of photo medium right around WWI) - but I think this one might be a bit too difficult to narrow down.  

[jkopz]

What a great resource to know someone who lives in Esch! Do you have any identified photos of Company H of the 11th Infantry, or the 11th Infantry in general?

[AustinO]

I have a handful of 5th Div photos taken in Luxembourg, but none are of Company H men.  

 

Here's Dr Masey, in command of the Medical Detachment 11th Infantry: 

 

And an unnamed 11th Infantry Lieutenant with his host family in Esch - was never able to ID this house despite the excellent details in the photo (and even the family's name on the reverse):

 

 

And some 5th Div Infantrymen enjoying a poker game in Lux: 

And come to think of it...that fellow with the DSC in your shot doesn't look like this guy does he? My photo is unfortunately unidentified, despite spending quite a while trying to figure out who he was.  

 

This one is also of 5th Div men (I believe they were in one of the Ambulance Companies) in Esch at "Cafe Esch".  I donated the photo a couple years ago and they ended up blowing it up huge and putting it on display in the Luxembourg National Military Museum:

 

 

[jkopz]

Amazing photos, those are so great, thank you for posting them. I love the card players, and whoever had the idea to blow that other one up huge was pretty smart, because that is a terrific display.

 

I think maybe one of your photos didn't upload properly, but here is another picture of SGT Silver I found in the newspaper. It was printed in the paper in 1930, so I suppose this one was taken sometime after the war:

 

 

And here's a close-up from the group photo above:

 

 

[Hermanus]

So, Sgt Tom Silver didn't have a French Croix de Guerre I think. In the last picture of him shown above he is wearing an Italian Cross of Merit next to his DSC.

[AustinO]

Agreed - he'd be wearing a CdG in the newspaper photo.  Must be the Italian Cross in the group shot! 

[jkopz]

Ok I checked his service record, and it says he earned the DSC and Italian Cross. But now I have questions:

1. Why would he be wearing the Italian Cross in ribbon form in the group shot (and not the medal)?

2. His service record and the newspaper both report that he was awarded the Italian Cross on April 14, 1919. However, I am reasonably certain the group shot was taken in January. SGT Silver transferred out of Company H on February 14, 1919. He can't be wearing the Italian Cross if it wasn't awarded until three months later?

3. How did he get an Italian Cross anyway? He didn't serve in Italy or under Italian command (as far as I know--Company H certainly didn't, they stayed in France with the 5th Division and then went to Luxembourg after the war). He is on the rosters for Company H all throughout 1918, up until February 1919.

[JBFloyd]

Allied awards were often distributed to the appropriate senior headquarters (e.g, HQ AEF) in batches and the receiving headquarters was to distribute them based on criteria they chose. There was not a requirement for proximity of recipient and the awarding nation. So, often awards like the Italian War Cross would go to recipients of senior US awards, but some were certainly set aside for men the US Army wanted to recognize, but where there was no appropriate US award.  So, a foreign decoration became a way to spread good will. Often the initial announcement was accompanied by a ribbon bar, with the actual medal and certificate coming later as the awarding nation was notified of the recipient's name, rank, unit, etc, and did the paperwork.

[AustinO]

Interesting....did he have pre-WWI service?  It could be a ribbon for service on the Mexican Border in 1917. It looks like he enlisted in November of 1916, but doesn't give a unit that would have been on the border:

 

 

The Italians did award medals to men who strictly served in France and never with them, likewise the French also gave out their fair share of CdG.  You usually see those allied medals awarded to guys who got the DSC.  It also could be that he didn't get the Italian medal until April, but was provided with the ribbon beforehand (have to confess I'm not sure how those medals were always awarded).  

[AustinO]

And here I am learning from Mr Floyd's wealth of knowledge.  Thanks! 

[jkopz]

Thank you for the responses, that certainly clears up my questions about why he would be wearing a ribbon only and how he got an Italian Cross. Much appreciated!

 

For the sake of clarity, SGT Silver's service record shows him staying in Co H until Sep. 05, but the monthly company rosters show him transferring out on Feb. 14. The records conflict. However, the ship transport lists show him returning to the US with Co. C 11th Infantry, on a different ship than Co. H, so I think he did get transferred out.

[KUGENER LUXEMBOURG]

Hi from Luxembourg

Your group photo was probably made in SCHIFFLANGE (south)

5th Div., 11th Inf., Co. H

I suggest you scan the group photo with at least 1200 dpi to see more details.

I can try to find the exact location where this photo was made, if you send me a copy by email

([email protected])

Thanks

Serge

[AustinO]

Serge is an expert on Luxembourg during the occupation and has helped me many times find locations in my photos. 😀

[jkopz]

Thank you, I appreciate you both. I sent Serge an email with the scans of the two versions of the group photo attached.