When did Army officers change from attaching the M1902 officer's saber from the near to the far side of their saddle

[Ranger-1972]

From the time of the American Revolution until sometime in the early 20th century, officers attached their sabers to the near side of their saddles, as can be seen on various drawings by Ogden, etc. and in photos.  Initially, the M1902 officer's saber was attached to the near side of the cantle. Certainly by the 1930s (perhaps the late 1920s), officers were attaching their M1902 sabers to the far side of the cantle.

 

Makes good sense, because it would take some considerable twisting and bending for an officer to reach across the saddle & grasp the handle of a saber hanging behind their left boot, but would be a simple matter to reach down and grasp the handle of a saber hanging just behind their right boot.

 

Does anyone have a reference for when that change occurred?

 

The M1913 cavalry saber ("Patton saber") appears in photos on the near side (attached to both the pommel and cantle) and on the far side (attached to both the pommel and cantle).  

 

I've got a private purchase officer's saddle (repaired by the Jefferson QM Depot in 1938) to go with a field grade Coast Artillery officer's M1937/38 mounted Dress Blue uniform (with the "pinks" riding breeches and russet riding boots), and want to ensure the M1902 saber is attached to the correct side of the saddle.  By 1938, was there some regulation that stated sabers are to be attached on the off side?

[SARGE]

Good question... I would like to know that as well.

 

 

[Spathologist]

I always thought the saber on the left side was just because it was being worn on the belt, and the images you posted seem to bear that out.

 

The sabers I've seen carried on the right side of the cantle are in saber carriers, and I don't think those were in existence before the M1912 gear.  Well, XM1911 sabers used them, but I think that was M1912 gear being tested. 

 

Ordnance Memorandum 29, dated 1885, describes a saber strap hung on a ring in front of the pommel on the left side and another through the left girth strap ring.  Both straps then went through the scabbard rings.

 

Memorandum 1719, dated 1908, describes saber straps but doesn't say where to hang them.

 

Ordnance Memorandum 1715, dated 1914, describes the M1912 kit and mandates scabbard carriers be suspended from the off cantle hinge, which I think answers your question on when the off side cantle carry entered regulation.

 

But, no doubt there was also some unit variation on how saddles were rigged.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ranger-1972]

That was certainly the way that the saber was carried using the M1872 sword belt / slings.

[Ranger-1972]

But the M1902 sword belt & slings were shorter.  Randy Steffan, in his fantastic series of books on the cavalry, shows an officer carrying the M1902 saber -- in the saber holder -- on the near side of the cantle during WWI.

[Ranger-1972]

And there are lots of ways that the M1913 ("Patton") cavalry saber was attached to the saddle.  On the near side & on the far side. Attached to the pommel & to the cantle. Vertically and diagonally.

[Ranger-1972]

Of course, the Patton saber was never designed to be worn attached to a sword belt while dismounted (though Patton did carry his around under his arm).  That -- and the older cavalry sabers -- were attached to the saddle with the straps mentioned in the 1908 memorandum.  Presume those straps could be used on the M1902 saber as well -- though once the 1912 saber carrier was adopted, it could have been buckled to the rings on either side of the saddle.

 

 

[Spathologist]

 This image you posted is from a correspondence dated 11 June 1914 from the commander of the RIA to the commander of the Springfield Armory.  The correspondence references O. O. 26791-0/2726 (RIA 260-33), dated 8 June 1914, that describes mounting the scabbard in this way from the pommel on either side using the straps.

 

Memorandum 1715 is dated October of 1914, and describes mounting the scabbard on a carrier on the off-side cantle hinge.  This is also how it's described in an article in the September 1912 issue of the Cavalry Journal.

 

Soo...

 

Sep 1912.  Saber carrier on the off-side cantle hinge.

 

June 1914.  Either side from the pommel using straps.

 

Oct 1914.  Saber carrier on the off-side cantle hinge.

 

Sounds like they could probably put the scabbards wherever they pleased and be in compliance with one reference or another...

 

 

[Ranger-1972]

Sounds like the post-Indian Wars / pre-WWI Army!

 

If an officer was planning to wear their saber after they dismounted, having it on the near side of the saddle would make it easier to detach from the saber carrier and clip onto your saber slings.

 

If an officer mounted it to the off side of the saddle, they would have to walk around the horse to get their saber.

Seems the "do what you want" approach fell out of vogue sometime after WWI.  Have not found any images of officers (post-1918) carrying their saber attached to the near side of the saddle.  

 

Do you have scanned copies of correspondence / memos you mentioned?

 

Thanks.

[Spathologist]

I do have this pic from 1920.  It looks like a saber scabbard running directly behind the officer's stirrup, and he is carrying a M1902.

 

The docs are hard copy in a chicago binder, I'll have to take it apart and scan the documents.

[Ranger-1972]

Thanks -- great photo and clearly shows the officer's scabbard on the near side of the saddle.

 

No rush on getting the documents -- if you have the opportunity, it would be a great addition to my collection of uniform regs.

 

In an earlier life, I lived in one of the historic sets of quarters at Ft Myer, VA -- which backed onto the parade ground.  No need for an alarm clock -- morning salute cannon plus reveille as they raised the flag outside your bedroom window.  Enjoyed watching The Old Guard perform their ceremonial duties. And getting invited by the Superintendent of Arlington National Cemetery to watch the 4th of July fireworks from the front of Custis House was probably the best seat in town.

Every cavalry regiment in the U.S. Army rotated through Ft Myer at some point between 1881-1940.  It was the "Home of the Cavalry" before Ft Riley took over that title.  There was also a battalion of horse artillery on post.  Most of the cavalry & mounted artillery drill took place on the "south post" -- over by what is today the Naval Support Facility on Courthouse Rd.

 

Found a photo from 1922 of a review (showing the "three sisters" radio towers in the background) and the reviewing officer has his scabbard on the near side of his saddle, with the strap to keep the scabbard firmly against the horse's flank attached to the off side of the cantle.  Also found a photo supposedly from 1930 of an officer of the 11th Cavalry Regt at the Presidio of Monterey, CA, wearing his M1902 saber attached to the near side of the cantle.

 

The fourth photo shows the 7th Cavalry at Ft Bliss, TX in 1934.  The officers are all wearing their sabers on the off side of the saddle.

[Ranger-1972]

Photos show the second version of the Dress Blue uniform with the roll collar, introduced in January 1937 by War Dept Circular 7, 7 Jan 1937. This version had patch pocket flaps on the chest and below the belt (unlike the first version, introduced in 1936 by War Dept Circular 66, 13 Oct 1936, which had a roll collar, but no visible pockets).  AR 60-38 (17 Aug 1938) made wear of this version of the Dress Blue uniform mandatory for officers.

 

The first photo is the Dress Blue uniform (mounted) worn by COL Otto H. Schrader, Coast Artillery Corps, immediately before the outbreak of WWII.  He had been commissioned as 2LT, Coast Artillery Corps, 7 April 1909 (accepted 26 Apr 1909); Service number O2544. Stationed in the Territory of Hawaii from 1916-1918, he commanded Ft Kamahemeha, which guarded the approaches to Pearl Harbor in the Hawaiian Territory, as a major in 1918. After a series of assignments on both the East and West Coast, as well as in Panama, he was promoted to colonel in 1938 and assumed command of the 8th Coast Artillery Regiment, Ft Preble, Maine.  He commanded the Harbor Defenses of Portland & Portsmouth, First Coast Artillery District, from January through Dec 1939.  In 1940, as part of the Army's effort to grow the force to meet the anticipated needs of the coming war, he wasin charge of Army Recruiting District in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.  After 32 years of service, he retired on 31 Dec 1941 (perhaps due to General Marshall's push to force out officers who were not fit for combat duty overseas).  Interesting that he wears only the WWI Victory Medal (no clasps, as he did not serve in France) and three qualification badges (Expert for Coast Artillery, Mines and Small Bore; Sharpshooter for revolver and semi-auto pistol; and Marksman for three different types of rifles).

 

Per AR 60-38, the sword belt was to be worn only when under arms.  The design of the belt was similar to that authorized in 1902, with the exception that all officers (except general officers of the line and general officers of the GHQ Air Force) were to wear what had previously been the company-grade officer’s belt (four bands of gold lace, with three silk stripes of the first-named color of the arm or service).  The sword was to be suspended using a nickel saber chain (rather than the sword hangers (straps) authorized in the 1902 regulation).  The dress saber knot was to be worn.

 

Unlike the sky blue riding breeches with branch color stripes and black riding boots worn with the 1905 Blue uniform, AR 60-38 stipulated that officers would wear the same "pinks" riding breeches and russett boots that were worn with the service uniform.

 

The hat, jacket, riding breeches, riding boots, and spurs all belonged to COL Schrader.  The sword belt and M1902 officer's saber with dress saber knot did not belong to him, but are from the same period.

 

The saddle is a private purchase officer's saddle, with a medallion under the left skirt indicating it was repaired 16 Aug 1936 at the Jefferson QM Depot.  The saber holder and saddle cloth are reproductions (the saber holder still needs to be dyed a darker color, and the saddle cloth is the 'service' version sold by WhatPriceGlory, which has been painted the same color as the Dress Blue jacket with scarlet for the leather binding around the edge to replicate the 'dress' version.

 

The Coast Artillery chevrac is the wrong version (e.g., pre-1907, before the thick crossed cannon were replaced by thinner crossed field guns), but it is certainly possible that during the depression, an officer would have 'saved money' wherever possible by continuing to use items they had already purchased earlier in their careers.  Also missing one of the 8th Coast Artillery Regiment collar insignia.  All of the items attached to the jacket are those that came with the jacket, including the Colonel's shoulder boards stitched to the shoulders.

 

The second image shows the same M1937 Dress Blue uniform with COL Schrader's sky blue trousers with scarlet stripes on the outside, for wear when dismounted, as well as his Special Evening Dress uniform.

 

 

 

 

[robinb]

This topic prompted me to share this photo of my French made but JQMD repaired saddle dated 1936 that belonged to Colonel Demuth. The sabre hanger is original to the saddle but the sword is not his.

[Ranger-1972]

Very nice.  The local leatherworker that's been helping me suggested using a light coat of Olive Oil to wipe down the saddle and keep the leather supple.  He said that neatsfoot oil was too sticky, but Olive Oil rubbed right into the leather.