Bayonets and Knives, and Scabbards

[LIFER]

Okay all of you that are collectors, what's the difference (if any) with the M2 and MK2. Also the M5 and the M5 A1? Metal or leather? 

[Doctorofwar]

I’m not sure I fully understand your question:  the M2 was a folding switchblade knife issued to airborne troops.  The Mk2 was the USN designation of the 1219c2 pattern combat knife- also used by the USMC as their Combat knife, popularly known as the “KA-BAR”.

The M5A1 was a improved M5 bayonet with minor internal differences to the latching mechanism if I recall.

The sheath (scabbard)  for the M5/M5A1 was the M8A1 made of synthetic material.  It will also fit the earlier M8 and M8 (modified) scabbards as they only differ in detail.

All early 1219c2 pattern knives were issued with leather sheaths.  Later USN Mk2s were issued or had their sheaths replaced with a “plastic” sheath designed for the knife.  The USMC continued to use leather sheaths for their combat knives.  

[Misfit 45]

Good summary, Doc.

Marv

[LIFER]

Glad to have you confirm that. So, if you were to have a display of them, M1 to 7 (and or 9) after the M1, it would be the MK2. with the M5, would it pay to have both?

Also, would you know about the ww1 bayonets, as for types and variations. 

[Doctorofwar]

The Mk2 is a fighting/utility knife not a bayonet- so it depends on what you are trying to accomplish with the display.  For issue bayonets designations skip from M1 to M4.  On the surface the M5 and M5A1 look the same so how detailed do you want to get with your collection? There are enough variations and makers of each one of these knives or bayonets to build a collection of any one type.  Marv is an expert of some of the subtle variations of bayonets-check out his posts.
 

As for WW1- the M1905 bayonet was standard for the M1903 rifle, the M1917 bayonet standard for the M1917 rifle.  There were several variations of scabbards.

[Misfit 45]

Lifer,

The best free way to learn about US bayonets in the 20th century is to go online to "Bayonetpoints" by Gary Cunningham......http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayonet_points.htm  It's the best resource you can find online.  You could also buy Gary's book, if you can find one.

 

Off the top of my head, here's a rundown of the bayonets of WWI on beyond, and a few knives that have the "M" designation.

WWI:

US Model of 1905 bayonet dated from 1906-1922  It fits the US 1903 Springfield Rifle.

US Model of 1917 bayonet made during the 1917-1918 period. It fits the US Model 1917 rifle.  Also called the US Enfield Rifle.

There were also many knives like bolo knives and knuckle handled trench knives during WWI

 

WWII:

The WWI US Model of 1905 was remade with plastic grips and is called the M1905.  Collectors call these M1905/42 bayonets... they were made from 1942 -March 1943.

These all fit the US M1 Rifle, also called the M1 Garand.

All the 1905 bayonets from WWI and WWII were re-called and cut from 16 inch blades down to 10 inch blades starting in April 1943.  They were then called the

M1 bayonet.

M2 paratrooper knife was a switchblade

US M3 Trench Knife was made from 1943 to mid 1944?

US M4 bayonet was made from mid 1944 to about September 1945.  It fits the M1 Carbine, which had to be retro-fitted to take the bayonet and most likely, these "new" carbines never made it to the front lines of combat.  Yes, many troops had M4 bayonets, but could not use them on their carbines.

Mk1 knives were used early in the war and were replaced by the

Mk2 "Kabars" with many manufacturers and markings.

There were many knives used during WWII...too many to list.

 

Korean War:

The bayonets used during this conflict were the M1 bayonet and the M4 bayonet, both left over from WWII. The same goes for the knives.

 

Post Korean war: 

US M5 bayonet which fits the M1 Rifle.  This bayonet was contracted in 1953 and not produced until 1954, after the Korean War was over.

US M5A1 bayonet The only difference is the internal mechanism.

US M6 bayonet which fits the US M14 Rifle.  Both rifle and bayonet are used at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Washington D.C.

 

Vietnam:

The M1, M4, M5, M5A1 and M6 bayonets were used in Vietnam by both US and South Vietnamese troops.

US M7 bayonet  which fits the M16 Rifle. There are many collecting opportunities with this bayonet.

US M1917 bayonet  This was used for riot control and guard duty and fits the Trench Shotguns.  It was newly made version of the WWI bayonet made during the Vietnam era.

Mk2 Combat knife made by Camillus  The same Mk2 used in WWII and the Korean War, just newly made.

 

Desert Storm:

US M9

 

Iraq and Afghanistan:

US M9 bayonet

OKC3S bayonet.   This is the first and only bayonet made specifically for the United States Marine Corps. (other than the many trials bayonets)

 

I don't mention much about the knives because I just don't know enough to comment.

Hope this helps.

Marv

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sactroop]

M8's and early M8A1's don't fit the M5 thru M6 bayonets well.  With the introduction of the M5 the sheath was modified to better fit the new bayonet. 

 

From Gary Cunningham's book.

[MattS]

My M-series bayonet, knife, and scabbard list:

 

M1 - bayonet for the M1 Garand, 10"

M2 - paratrooper switchblade knife

M3 - scabbard for the M1905 (aka M1942) 16" bayonet

M3 - fighting/trench knife produced 1943-1944

M4 - bayonet for the M1 Carbine produced with leather and later plastic grips

M5 and M5A1 - bayonet for the M1 Garand introduced in 1954

M6 - leather scabbard for the M3 knife

M6 - bayonet for the M14 rifle

M7 - bayonet for the M16 rifle

M7 - scabbard for the M1 bayonet

M8 and M8A1 - scabbards for the M3 through M7

M9 - bayonet for the M16/M4 rifles introduced in 1986

M10 - black plastic scabbard for the M7

M11 - EOD knife

[MattS]

On 1/26/2021 at 6:02 PM, LIFER said:

Okay all of you that are collectors, what's the difference (if any) with the M2 and MK2. Also the M5 and the M5 A1? Metal or leather? 

 

It's important to understand that a M2 is pronounced "M two" while MK2 is "Mark two". 

[LIFER]

On 1/26/2021 at 6:18 PM, Doctorofwar said:

I’m not sure I fully understand your question:  the M2 was a folding switchblade knife issued to airborne troops.  The Mk2 was the USN designation of the 1219c2 pattern combat knife- also used by the USMC as their Combat knife, popularly known as the “KA-BAR”.

The M5A1 was a improved M5 bayonet with minor internal differences to the latching mechanism if I recall.

The sheath (scabbard)  for the M5/M5A1 was the M8A1 made of synthetic material.  It will also fit the earlier M8 and M8 (modified) scabbards as they only differ in detail.

All early 1219c2 pattern knives were issued with leather sheaths.  Later USN Mk2s were issued or had their sheaths replaced with a “plastic” sheath designed for the knife.  The USMC continued to use leather sheaths for their combat knives.  

Understanding that the M2 is a folding knife, and the MK2 is the Ka Bar, I would not expect it (the M2 folding knife) to be in with the class with bayonets and regular knives. Although it's probably mentioned in a book, of which I am working on getting.

Since there does not appear to be much difference between the M5 and M% A1, then just go with one. 

My project is to have a display of bayonets and fighting knives (ka Bars). So they would be the M1 bayonet, MK2 Ka Bar, M3 fighting knife, M4-M7 , and M9 bayonets. Then if needed, folding ones.

[LIFER]

On 1/26/2021 at 8:41 PM, Doctorofwar said:

The Mk2 is a fighting/utility knife not a bayonet- so it depends on what you are trying to accomplish with the display.  For issue bayonets designations skip from M1 to M4.  On the surface the M5 and M5A1 look the same so how detailed do you want to get with your collection? There are enough variations and makers of each one of these knives or bayonets to build a collection of any one type.  Marv is an expert of some of the subtle variations of bayonets-check out his posts.
 

As for WW1- the M1905 bayonet was standard for the M1903 rifle, the M1917 bayonet standard for the M1917 rifle.  There were several variations of scabbards.

Figuring that there are avid collectors with one of each model, and all the makers, this is not that intense. Which ever company made the ones that have or to get. Now, besides the MK2, will be in search of the M1905 and M1917 to complete the display. 

[LIFER]

On 1/26/2021 at 10:41 PM, Misfit 45 said:

Lifer,

The best free way to learn about US bayonets in the 20th century is to go online to "Bayonetpoints" by Gary Cunningham......http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayonet_points.htm  It's the best resource you can find online.  You could also buy Gary's book, if you can find one.

 

Off the top of my head, here's a rundown of the bayonets of WWI on beyond, and a few knives that have the "M" designation.

WWI:

US Model of 1905 bayonet dated from 1906-1922  It fits the US 1903 Springfield Rifle.

US Model of 1917 bayonet made during the 1917-1918 period. It fits the US Model 1917 rifle.  Also called the US Enfield Rifle.

There were also many knives like bolo knives and knuckle handled trench knives during WWI

 

WWII:

The WWI US Model of 1905 was remade with plastic grips and is called the M1905.  Collectors call these M1905/42 bayonets... they were made from 1942 -March 1943.

These all fit the US M1 Rifle, also called the M1 Garand.

All the 1905 bayonets from WWI and WWII were re-called and cut from 16 inch blades down to 10 inch blades starting in April 1943.  They were then called the

M1 bayonet.

M2 paratrooper knife was a switchblade

US M3 Trench Knife was made from 1943 to mid 1944?

US M4 bayonet was made from mid 1944 to about September 1945.  It fits the M1 Carbine, which had to be retro-fitted to take the bayonet and most likely, these "new" carbines never made it to the front lines of combat.  Yes, many troops had M4 bayonets, but could not use them on their carbines.

Mk1 knives were used early in the war and were replaced by the

Mk2 "Kabars" with many manufacturers and markings.

There were many knives used during WWII...too many to list.

 

Korean War:

The bayonets used during this conflict were the M1 bayonet and the M4 bayonet, both left over from WWII. The same goes for the knives.

 

Post Korean war: 

US M5 bayonet which fits the M1 Rifle.  This bayonet was contracted in 1953 and not produced until 1954, after the Korean War was over.

US M5A1 bayonet The only difference is the internal mechanism.

US M6 bayonet which fits the US M14 Rifle.  Both rifle and bayonet are used at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Washington D.C.

 

Vietnam:

The M1, M4, M5, M5A1 and M6 bayonets were used in Vietnam by both US and South Vietnamese troops.

US M7 bayonet  which fits the M16 Rifle. There are many collecting opportunities with this bayonet.

US M1917 bayonet  This was used for riot control and guard duty and fits the Trench Shotguns.  It was newly made version of the WWI bayonet made during the Vietnam era.

Mk2 Combat knife made by Camillus  The same Mk2 used in WWII and the Korean War, just newly made.

 

Desert Storm:

US M9

 

Iraq and Afghanistan:

US M9 bayonet

OKC3S bayonet.   This is the first and only bayonet made specifically for the United States Marine Corps. (other than the many trials bayonets)

 

I don't mention much about the knives because I just don't know enough to comment.

Hope this helps.

Marv

 

 

Hi Marv,

Glad to get your input. Yes, it helps. Aware of the ww1 bolo and knuckle knives. I sent replies to Doctorofwar, so that should give a better understanding , of the project. 

 

 

 

 

[LIFER]

On 1/26/2021 at 10:41 PM, Misfit 45 said:

Lifer,

The best free way to learn about US bayonets in the 20th century is to go online to "Bayonetpoints" by Gary Cunningham......http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayonet_points.htm  It's the best resource you can find online.  You could also buy Gary's book, if you can find one.

 

Off the top of my head, here's a rundown of the bayonets of WWI on beyond, and a few knives that have the "M" designation.

WWI:

US Model of 1905 bayonet dated from 1906-1922  It fits the US 1903 Springfield Rifle.

US Model of 1917 bayonet made during the 1917-1918 period. It fits the US Model 1917 rifle.  Also called the US Enfield Rifle.

There were also many knives like bolo knives and knuckle handled trench knives during WWI

 

WWII:

The WWI US Model of 1905 was remade with plastic grips and is called the M1905.  Collectors call these M1905/42 bayonets... they were made from 1942 -March 1943.

These all fit the US M1 Rifle, also called the M1 Garand.

All the 1905 bayonets from WWI and WWII were re-called and cut from 16 inch blades down to 10 inch blades starting in April 1943.  They were then called the

M1 bayonet.

M2 paratrooper knife was a switchblade

US M3 Trench Knife was made from 1943 to mid 1944?

US M4 bayonet was made from mid 1944 to about September 1945.  It fits the M1 Carbine, which had to be retro-fitted to take the bayonet and most likely, these "new" carbines never made it to the front lines of combat.  Yes, many troops had M4 bayonets, but could not use them on their carbines.

Mk1 knives were used early in the war and were replaced by the

Mk2 "Kabars" with many manufacturers and markings.

There were many knives used during WWII...too many to list.

 

Korean War:

The bayonets used during this conflict were the M1 bayonet and the M4 bayonet, both left over from WWII. The same goes for the knives.

 

Post Korean war: 

US M5 bayonet which fits the M1 Rifle.  This bayonet was contracted in 1953 and not produced until 1954, after the Korean War was over.

US M5A1 bayonet The only difference is the internal mechanism.

US M6 bayonet which fits the US M14 Rifle.  Both rifle and bayonet are used at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Washington D.C.

 

Vietnam:

The M1, M4, M5, M5A1 and M6 bayonets were used in Vietnam by both US and South Vietnamese troops.

US M7 bayonet  which fits the M16 Rifle. There are many collecting opportunities with this bayonet.

US M1917 bayonet  This was used for riot control and guard duty and fits the Trench Shotguns.  It was newly made version of the WWI bayonet made during the Vietnam era.

Mk2 Combat knife made by Camillus  The same Mk2 used in WWII and the Korean War, just newly made.

 

Desert Storm:

US M9

 

Iraq and Afghanistan:

US M9 bayonet

OKC3S bayonet.   This is the first and only bayonet made specifically for the United States Marine Corps. (other than the many trials bayonets)

 

I don't mention much about the knives because I just don't know enough to comment.

Hope this helps.

Marv

 

 

 

That's good to know, about the book. Is it better than Knives, bayonets and scabbards. I was trying to get one. 

 

 

 

[LIFER]

15 hours ago, MattS said:

 

It's important to understand that a M2 is pronounced "M two" while MK2 is "Mark two". 

Good to know. 

[LIFER]

15 hours ago, MattS said:

My M-series bayonet, knife, and scabbard list:

 

M1 - bayonet for the M1 Garand, 10"

M2 - paratrooper switchblade knife

M3 - scabbard for the M1905 (aka M1942) 16" bayonet

M3 - fighting/trench knife produced 1943-1944

M4 - bayonet for the M1 Carbine produced with leather and later plastic grips

M5 and M5A1 - bayonet for the M1 Garand introduced in 1954

M6 - leather scabbard for the M3 knife

M6 - bayonet for the M14 rifle

M7 - bayonet for the M16 rifle

M7 - scabbard for the M1 bayonet

M8 and M8A1 - scabbards for the M3 through M7

M9 - bayonet for the M16/M4 rifles introduced in 1986

M10 - black plastic scabbard for the M7

M11 - EOD knife

 

[LIFER]

15 hours ago, MattS said:

My M-series bayonet, knife, and scabbard list:

 

M1 - bayonet for the M1 Garand, 10"

M2 - paratrooper switchblade knife

M3 - scabbard for the M1905 (aka M1942) 16" bayonet

M3 - fighting/trench knife produced 1943-1944

M4 - bayonet for the M1 Carbine produced with leather and later plastic grips

M5 and M5A1 - bayonet for the M1 Garand introduced in 1954

M6 - leather scabbard for the M3 knife

M6 - bayonet for the M14 rifle

M7 - bayonet for the M16 rifle

M7 - scabbard for the M1 bayonet

M8 and M8A1 - scabbards for the M3 through M7

M9 - bayonet for the M16/M4 rifles introduced in 1986

M10 - black plastic scabbard for the M7

M11 - EOD knife

Good list. 

[LIFER]

On 1/27/2021 at 7:05 PM, sactroop said:

M8's and early M8A1's don't fit the M5 thru M6 bayonets well.  With the introduction of the M5 the sheath was modified to better fit the new bayonet. 

 

From Gary Cunningham's book.

That makes sense and working on picking up a book.