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Question about rate of sleeve of child's late 1800s jumper


Siamundo
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I recently picked up a smaller child's size set of a navy blue jumper, pants, and flat blue hat which I think are from the 1890's. Anyway, I was curious about the rate on the sleeve and wondered if it might be an original issue Model1886 or Model 1893 rate. It is very well made and looks oversized on the sleeve, It is approximately 4" high, 3" wide, and the chevrons about 2-1/2"+- wide. Hat has a USS Oregon tally so I had wondered if this uniform might have been tailored for the child of a sailor stationed aboard and made to resemble "dad's" as much a possible.

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On 1/24/2021 at 9:59 PM, Siamundo said:

I recently picked up a smaller child's size set of a navy blue jumper, pants, and flat blue hat which I think are from the 1890's. Anyway, I was curious about the rate on the sleeve and wondered if it might be an original issue Model1886 or Model 1893 rate. It is very well made and looks oversized on the sleeve, It is approximately 4" high, 3" wide, and the chevrons about 2-1/2"+- wide. Hat has a USS Oregon tally so I had wondered if this uniform might have been tailored for the child of a sailor stationed aboard and made to resemble "dad's" as much a possible.

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I would say this is not an “issue “ rating badge. The style of the eagle is completely wrong. Addition, the stitching between chevrons is not correct style. It was made for the civilian “Middie” market. 

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OK, thank you. I found this picture attributed to the 1886 Navy Uniform Regulations manual and noticed although the wings were different, the eagle had a similar elongated goose like neck.

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7 hours ago, Siamundo said:

OK, thank you. I found this picture attributed to the 1886 Navy Uniform Regulations manual and noticed although the wings were different, the eagle had a similar elongated goose like neck.

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If you look through this section of this forum, there are a lot of examples of the 1880s and up Original rating badges. None look like yours. 

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You must be careful of the uniform drawings in this Regulation they are spurious to say the least. Look at the actual drawings  and description of the rating badges instead,and you will see the difference especially in the construction of the chevrons. All that aside this is one of the coolest childs uniforms ever I would think a sailor had it made for a child or nephew by someone familiar with Naval uniform construction and the rating badge is most likely the rank of the man who had it tailored. I would love to see more pictures of the hat and pants and Thankyou for posting it!

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Thank you topdcnut. I thought it was too cool to pass up. Here are some additional photos of all 3 pieces. 

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Justin B.

You can see some specialty mark illustrations from the uniform regulations here (they are negative images for some reason):

https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-123000/NH-123274.html

https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-123000/NH-123273.html

 

Also the rating badge illustrations can be seen on pages 9 and 10 here:

https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-123000.html

 

That kiddie uniform is absolutely superb, thanks for posting. The choice of rating badge is also interesting because Carpenter's Mate 1st Class in the old style rating badge was only authorized 1893-94.

 

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I would agree, the uniform itself, is amazing!  The 4 small eyelets in the front on the fall, would have had a piece of black silk ribbon, like in the gusset in the back. That was a common decoration back then. 

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Bob Hudson

Midis may have died out as a child's or woman's fashion item but Ralph Lauren keeps the military fashion look alive: 

 

 

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David Minton
Could it be a rating that was foreign manufactured?

It is so far off I would doubt it personally. Sometimes something is just what it appears to be.


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I am sure that the rating badge was intentionally made different, but by the looks of it the person who had this made was more than likely was a Carpetersmate 1st Class. Before the explosion of Middies around WW1 these were usually one off items made by the Tailor/Seamstress that made the actual Tailor-mades for the sailors them selves. And in many cases carried the individuals rank and rate. Aside from the patch this uniform is incredible, can we see the inside of the hat? Ohh and I was not slighting the patch it is an incredible version of a period Rating badge for a childs uniform.

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Thank you everyone for your kind words. Thank you for the links Justin B., those are a nice reference source. As you mention topdcnut, I had wondered if it might be privately made-especially with the small details. I don't know much about children's uniforms from this era though. Here is the inside of the hat as requested. I had wondered if the hat itself might be an issue item, though in an extra small size. It measures about 10.5" across the top, but just guessing it might be a size 6 maybe? No labels or marking anywhere inside that I can see.

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David Minton
Thank you everyone for your kind words. Thank you for the links Justin B., those are a nice reference source. As you mention topdcnut, I had wondered if it might be privately made-especially with the small details. I don't know much about children's uniforms from this era though. Here is the inside of the hat as requested. I had wondered if the hat itself might be an issue item, though in an extra small size. It measures about 10.5" across the top, but just guessing it might be a size 6 maybe? No labels or marking anywhere inside that I can see.


Heads were smaller then. Here is my 6yo wearing an adult WAVES cap, and that was WWWII, fifty or so years after yours was made.

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And an adult dress cap when she was four. This is a similar jumper with authentic details, unlike most of the kid sailor suits I have seen. It has a normal WWI era QM 2c rate.

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11 hours ago, topdcnut said:

I am sure that the rating badge was intentionally made different, but by the looks of it the person who had this made was more than likely was a Carpetersmate 1st Class. Before the explosion of Middies around WW1 these were usually one off items made by the Tailor/Seamstress that made the actual Tailor-mades for the sailors them selves. And in many cases carried the individuals rank and rate. Aside from the patch this uniform is incredible, can we see the inside of the hat? Ohh and I was not slighting the patch it is an incredible version of a period Rating badge for a childs uniform.

 Other than the leather sweat band the hat has all of the detail of an adult one, would have liked to see the neckerchief but I suspect it my have been an adult one possibly.

About what size child would have worn it?

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Thanks dpcsdan. The hat was almost a bonus as it was lying flat and the seller had made no effort to open the bottom and discover there was a ship's tally on it. 

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  • 4 months later...
patches
On 1/28/2021 at 7:40 PM, David Minton said:

 


Heads were smaller then. Here is my 6yo wearing an adult WAVES cap, and that was WWWII, fifty or so years after yours was made.

01f8320964cd6b3740f03f2afde88700.jpg

And an adult dress cap when she was four. This is a similar jumper with authentic details, unlike most of the kid sailor suits I have seen. It has a normal WWI era QM 2c rate.

4153e27811a86e5899e0da74225bcff2.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Swell pictures!

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