Model 1904 Hospital Corps Knife Bolo For consideration

[The Rooster]

Greetings,

I was wondering what the opinions are on this Bolo knife ?

 

Thank you.

[SKIPH]

Rooster- The "S.A.",and serial numbers were not added until 1907. Looks like an early one. SKIP

[The Rooster]

Just guessing that these early ones with no serial are a bit on the Rare side ?

The rivets look different than others Ive seen and no Lanyard hole ?

 

[SKIPH]

Rechecked MH Cole, Book III, he states on the opposite page serial numbers began in 1905. Rooster you have some good  updated information that would help all of us out. Since 1904 bolos are not my main focus, it would be appreciated by all.  THX ! SKIP

[The Rooster]

M-1904 Hospital Corps Knife 
Basic Information

The M-1904 Hospital Corps Knife was the first of the modern Springfield Armory made edged weapons to carry a serial number. Designed for use by the U. S. Army Medical Corps, over 40,000 Hospital Corps Knives were made at the Springfield Armory, Springfield, MA between 1904 and 1914, however, none have been found with the 1906 date. According to archive correspondence, the first 236 knives were issued without serial numbers, but at the request of the Surgeon General of the U.S. Army, the Springfield Armory began the serial numbering process with number 237 and continuing upward. Previously issued knives were recalled for numbering, but a very small number of knives without serial numbers have survived. The lowest known serial number is 264. Contrary to many stories, the knife was not designed for "field expedient amputations", but the look in the novice's eyes often make the tale worth the telling.

 

According to archive correspondence, the first 236 knives were issued without serial numbers, but at the request of the Surgeon General of the U.S. Army, the Springfield Armory began the serial numbering process with number 237 and continuing upward.

 

 

 

This Bolo I have looks to be one of the first 236 knifes that did not get a serial number. Compare the hallmarks in the first set of photos of a non serialed Bolo to the Hall marks on mine.

They appear to be the same.

I think I have one of the very first bolos out of the first group of 236 ?

If so, I would imagine that this bolo is extremely rare ?

Also pictured is an early serialed 1904 with No SA Marking.

[SKIPH]

Dave- Great info! Thanks for posting. SKIP

 

[The Rooster]

Thank you Skip !

I should add that these were made for the Army............. Army Hospital Corpsman knives.

Not Marine corps or Navy.

 

Dave

 

[GWS]

I didn't know the first 236 made were not serial numbered! The first year of  the M-1905 bayonets made at R.I.A. were not serialized either.  The M-1904  Hospital Corp knife had the most comfortable and ergonomic grip of any of the bolos in my opinion.  I'm sure they also had the thickest blades too.  Good information and thanks for sharing.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Steve

[GWS]

The Rooster--Have you ever seen one of the M-1904 scabbards with the leather belt loop the Cole mentions in Book lll ?  I have not.  Possibly only in 1904?   I wonder if any of the scabbards were made or converted to the m-1910 hanger system? Never seen one of those either. Was the M-1904 the first knife the U.S. designed using the bolo pattern?  Lots of questions for sure.  Thanks again.

 

                                                                                                                                                                     Steve

[The Rooster]

1 hour ago, GWS said:

I didn't know the first 236 made were not serial numbered! The first year of  the M-1905 bayonets made at R.I.A. were not serialized either.  The M-1904  Hospital Corp knife had the most comfortable and ergonomic grip of any of the bolos in my opinion.  I'm sure they also had the thickest blades too.  Good information and thanks for sharing.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Steve

Thats a beauty !!! I did find one of the scabbards you are mentioning...

[SKIPH]

Something I have never seen about any of the US bolos   (Models  1904, 1909, 1910, 1917), was why they only beveled one side of the cutting edge. Seems it would not be an efficient way to cut. I have a repro I bought over 45 years ago, that couldn't cut worth a hoot. (Haven't tried it with a collectible). Anyone run across documentation as to why they were made that way? SKIP

[GWS]

The Rooster said: "Thats a beauty !!! I did find one of the scabbards you are mentioning...".

 

   Wow! Thats about the best condition M-1904 I've ever seen!  And the first leather hanger scabbard in equally pristine condition!  So, the obvious question now is why they still made the Krag-style hanger in 1910, when yours with the leather strap hanger was  made in 1908??? Any sense of why?

 

21 minutes ago, SKIPH said:

Something I have never seen about any of the US bolos   (Models  1904, 1909, 1910, 1917), was why they only beveled one side of the cutting edge. Seems it would not be an efficient way to cut. I have a repro I bought over 45 years ago, that couldn't cut worth a hoot. (Haven't tried it with a collectible). Anyone run across documentation as to why they were made that way? SKIP

     I don't know either,  but I wonder if they thought it might retain an edge better or possibly be easier to maintain an edge in the field?  Thanks for asking that, it never occurred to me.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Steve

[The Rooster]

Its on epay....

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1913-SPRINGFIELD-ARMORY-WWI-U-S-ARMY-CORPS-M1904-BOLO-KNIFE-ROCK-ISLAND-SHEATH/353364092577?hash=item52462426a1:g:oxoAAOSwWKBgDGVW

 

It is a nice one. But I bet it goes for a high price.

[The Rooster]

Here is some other info I gleaned from sellers descriptions..

 

M1904 was originally designed as a large, but “non-weaponized” knife to aid the Corpsmen with the difficult tasks of setting up a field hospital, clearing foliage, sharpening stakes, etc. – thus the rounded “non-threatening” blade. A scarce type – only about 40,000 serial-numbered M1904s were made in total.

 

The overall length is about 17-1/4” / 43.8 cm; blade’s length is about 12” / 30.5 cm, about 2-1/4” / 6.5 cm wide, 7/16” / 10 mm thick at ricasso. Bright finish blade is in excellent condition overall; the edge is very sharp

 

All original pre-WW1 SA 1910 M1904 Hospital Corps Knife specimens in good condition are rare these days – most of these Hospital Corps Bolos were used as intended during WW1, relatively few survived in good condition.

 

https://bolo.fandom.com/wiki/Bolo_Knives_of_the_U.S._Army

 

"This is a Model 1904 Springfield Arsenal Made and serial numbered Hospital Corps Bolo Knife, one of the more enigmatic and mysterious military knives issued to American troops from 1904 to 1914. Designed for use by the U.S. Army Medical Corps, there have been many stories about their intended use- everything from clearing brush to performing battlefield amputations. One thing that is not unclear is that these huge 17 ½” overall length knives were painstakingly manufactured with bright steel blades, brass double guards, walnut handles with finger grooves and brass rivets and butt cap. This example with original leather and brass reinforced sheath with correct steel belt hanger is in excellent condition. The full 12 inch rounded blade retains a sharp edge and shows no signs of cleaning or sharpening. The rear of the blade is clearly and correctly stamped on the left side “S. A.” over a flaming bomb proof stamp and “1910” indicating the date of manufacture. The right side rear is stamped “U S” over the serial number “16037.” All brass fittings show no signs of polishing and display a mellow patina. Excellent handles and fine leather with Rock Island Arsenal markings toward the bottom. A seldom seen U.S. martial edged weapon that is now 118 years old."

 

From the forum

 

Actually... this link is not really relevant.

It drifts off into USMC Bolos.....

 

 

Would it be safe to say that the original Bolo in this post is one of the first 236 made ?

[GWS]

1 hour ago, The Rooster said:

Its on epay....

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1913-SPRINGFIELD-ARMORY-WWI-U-S-ARMY-CORPS-M1904-BOLO-KNIFE-ROCK-ISLAND-SHEATH/353364092577?hash=item52462426a1:g:oxoAAOSwWKBgDGVW

 

It is a nice one. But I bet it goes for a high price.

 

          X2  Yes, it is one of the best I ever seen and it looks to be original too. I'm watching it!   The description- "  "This is a Model 1904 Springfield Arsenal Made and serial numbered Hospital Corps Bolo Knife, one of the more enigmatic and mysterious military knives issued to American troops from 1904 to 1914."  is abit over the top for me, but I'm not selling it!.

Thanks for the extra info. 

 

                                                      Steve

[Charlie Flick]

Rooster:

 

That is a nice bolo you have there.  It is unfortunately missing the brass butt cap and screw.  I have seen this happen on a few of these HC bolos.  As has been pointed out, these blades are over 100 years old and have been subjected to all kinds of use and conditions.

 

A buddy of mine had one like that.  He got tired of looking for years for an original replacement part.  About 20 years ago he had access to an aircraft machine shop and was able to persuade his friend there to take an original butt cap and make a couple of identical duplicates on the CNC milling machine.  It came out looking perfect and fit right on the butt of his bolo.  Of course, it is not an original SA part but we agreed that the newly manufactured replacement part was the best solution for an otherwise nice blade with the flaw in question.  You might want to look into getting that accomplished or, alternatively, look for a poor condition bolo from which the part missing on your bolo can be salvaged.

 

Regards,

Charlie

[thorin6]

Here's mine with the leather belt loop.

 

[thorin6]

And for consideration another enigmatic bolo, this one is for engineers.  It's unit marked 'Co C 114 E."  Note the leather belt loop.

 

 

[thorin6]

Also note that the M1909 Hospital Bolo had a leather loop.

 

 

[SKIPH]

Finding a loose scabbard that is in good shape,  has been a challenge. I have a Collins 1005, and two M1909s that need them. But, sooner or later I'll get one, or all. Patience is all important in our collecting hobby.  THX for all the great bolo pics. SKIP

[The Rooster]

Those are awesome Bolo's !!

Thank you all for posting them.

 

[robinb]

Here's my 1904 dated example and unmarked scabbard.

[robinb]

9 hours ago, GWS said:

 

 

   Wow! Thats about the best condition M-1904 I've ever seen!  And the first leather hanger scabbard in equally pristine condition!  So, the obvious question now is why they still made the Krag-style hanger in 1910, when yours with the leather strap hanger was  made in 1908??? Any sense of why?

 

     

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                      

The reason the Krag type hanger was used on these scabbards is that the Medical Department issued leather belts to its enlisted men. The Krag hanger in conjunction with a leather "adapter" was used with that belt. The medical department didn't issue a web belt until 1917, when it replaced the M1904 knife with the standard M1910 hatchet.

[GWS]

  Thanks for your response RobinB, it makes sense now when we know that the two different hangers were for two different type belts.  I do have one of those leather belt adapters but never really knew who used them, even though I knew what they were for.  Thanks again.

 

                                                                                                                  Steve

[robinb]

I think you're still confused. There is only one proper belt that was used with the M1904 knife; the leather one.