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Vietnam helmet just needing opinions please


Paul marsden
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Hi guys I've just got my second vietnam helmet i really want to call ot a been there piece... just wanted to show you for your opinions and any information you may have. What I know so far is

 

•The m1 steel pot is possibly late ww2 or Korean war repainted for vietnam 

• liner is dsa dated 1965 and produced by westinghouse electric company

•sweatband is dsa dated 1974

•nape strap is dsa contract number 4755 so late 64 early 65

• Mitchell cover is dated 1963

• scrim strap is original with Greenland on it (soilders name????)

• also has numbers on straps and any help here would be good 👍 

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I was going to say that it looks like a put-together set to me, because the cover looks loose / sloppy on it, and some of the wear points on the cover don’t coincide with the anatomy of the shell.

 

But then I see that you took the cover off, so it’s anybody’s guess at this point.  It’s yours to do with as you see fit, but IF it was a nice original set, with a tight-fitting cover, you made it look like a put-together by taking it apart.  

 

Friendly recommendation is to leave helmets whole, and resist the urge to take them apart and play with them - because afterwards, they look - well - played-with.  A saving grace could be that you can ID the shell by the number on the chinstrap, and that it belonged to a soldier named “Greenland”.  Chances of that are close to nil, based primarily on the limited availability of information on Vietnam soldiers.

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To me it isn't the removal of the cover that's fatal, though Blacksmith's advice is good. It's the wide range of years of the parts. They don't match to the day because of the various parts contractors but that's a pretty wide range. One might just say the '74 headband was a later replacement but then you are still looking at a lot of spread out eras IMO.

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Everybody who has a Vietnam M1 like yours wants to believe it's a "been there" piece.  However, the number of true Vietnam "been there" M1's IMO is exceedingly low compared to the thousands of put together representative Vietnam M1's that are widely available on the market .  Yours is most likely a nice "representative" Vietnam M1.  

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1 hour ago, dmar836 said:

To me it isn't the removal of the cover that's fatal, though Blacksmith's advice is good. It's the wide range of years of the parts. They don't match to the day because of the various parts contractors but that's a pretty wide range. One might just say the '74 headband was a later replacement but then you are still looking at a lot of spread out eras IMO.

I don't think that's a real problem since the military reused a lot of helmets from different eras well into the 80s. There are pics of soldiers using WW2 m1 helmets in Vietnam with the od3 sewn on chinstraps. Just because something was made at a certain year doesn't mean it was used at that time.

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Heptonic48, This is your quote from another thread:

 

"All original used salty helmets are out there, but they're harder to find. I have a few Nam helmets, but most of them are put together. I usually find original parts seperately until I have all the parts to put together a complete helmet."

 

So from your experience the helmet Paul has shared(the actual subject of the thread) is most likely what?

 

 

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Firstly thanks all you guys for your responses, I never expected it to be an untouched piece just the fact that most of the parts are early war dated and well used so probably more so hoping that they may have been used at some point i always expect these type of helmets to be a put together piece ive never seen one that is all original and together. Its a shame you can't find out via the numbers on the straps im assuming its a soldiers number of who parts may have belong to... once again thanks for your input..👍

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3 hours ago, Heptonic48 said:

I don't think that's a real problem since the military reused a lot of helmets from different eras well into the 80s. There are pics of soldiers using WW2 m1 helmets in Vietnam with the od3 sewn on chinstraps. Just because something was made at a certain year doesn't mean it was used at that time.

I can tell you that in 1983 I was issue a MINT WW2 helmet and liner at boot camp.

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7 hours ago, dmar836 said:

Heptonic48, This is your quote from another thread:

 

"All original used salty helmets are out there, but they're harder to find. I have a few Nam helmets, but most of them are put together. I usually find original parts seperately until I have all the parts to put together a complete helmet."

 

So from your experience the helmet Paul has shared(the actual subject of the thread) is most likely what?

 

 

I was just pointing out that a soldier in Vietnam could've been issued a helmet with parts from different eras. Im not claiming to be an expert or trying to say whether Paul's helmet is put together or not

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I have a bona fide USMC vet acquired helmet from Vietnam service with fixed bail shell, Korean era liner, and Vietnam era Mitchell cover. They exist. Military used most equipment until it was worn out or destroyed. 

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1 hour ago, gap said:

I have a bona fide USMC vet acquired helmet from Vietnam service with fixed bail shell, Korean era liner, and Vietnam era Mitchell cover. They exist. Military used most equipment until it was worn out or destroyed. 

I’m curious if you’ve been in the Army - just for reasons of perspective.  Let me say it another way:  If what you said is true, about using most equipment until worn out / destroyed, there would be no surplus market.  Especially with helmets, they were NOT used until worn out / destroyed.  They were used until regulations on equipment changed, and they were turned in pursuant to the same.  Due to the sheer size of the Army, it takes a lot of time to get the change made system-wide, and they generally start with line / combat units, and work their way through support organizations, TRADOC, etc.  As one example, when I got to BRT (“boot camp”), we got issued M1 steel pots for training.  Once I went to ‘permanent party’, never saw anything but Kevlar / PASGT.  

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What I should have said is that there are numerous examples of equipment being used well past introduction.  Helmets are certainly only one example.   You also have rifles, sidearms, field gear, grenades, edged weapons, heck even K rations being used well beyond WW2.   In any event, an M1 helmet with components from different eras is not uncommon and does not necessarily indicate a "put together" helmet, which was my point. 

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I've posted this before, but to me a M1 shell is dated by the latest refurb. If it was a shell made by McCord in 1943 but has angled clip-on chinstraps, it's a post-1973 helmet. Just my opinion.

The OD green painted buckles on this were used 1951-1960, replaced by identical black buckles from 1961-1973. Were green buckles seen in Vietnam? Absolutely, but the last refurbishment this helmet shell had was between 1951-1960. The latest item appears to be the 1974 cover. And yes, I'm sure "Greenland" is the soldier's last name on the band.

 

My quick way to date the shell by the chin straps (not exact but my general guideline);

1941-1944 sewn-on OD3 (khaki) web straps (WW2)

1944-1951 sewn-on OD7 (dark green) web straps (late WW2-Korea)

1951-1960 OD painted buckles attaching web straps (Korea-early Vietnam)

1960-1973 black painted buckles attaching web straps (Vietnam era)

1973-1990 angled clip-on nylon straps with snap-on chinstrap

[I use 1990 as the end date because I wore one in basic training in 1990, but only saw Kevlars after 1990]

 

These dates are when the styles changed, but earlier ones remained in the system. Conversely, a shell with angled clip-on straps was not used in that configuration PRIOR to 1973 even though the shell itself could have been produced during WW2 as shells were constantly repaired and repainted over the years. Hope that makes sense.

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21 minutes ago, MattS said:

I've posted this before, but to me a M1 shell is dated by the latest refurb. If it was a shell made by McCord in 1943 but has angled clip-on chinstraps, it's a post-1973 helmet. Just my opinion.

The OD green painted buckles on this were used 1951-1960, replaced by identical black buckles from 1961-1973. Were green buckles seen in Vietnam? Absolutely, but the last refurbishment this helmet shell had was between 1951-1960. The latest item appears to be the 1974 cover. And yes, I'm sure "Greenland" is the soldier's last name on the band.

Thats a good opinion thanks so am I right in your thinking that the shell is post war and resprayed between 1951-1960 and re issued for either Korea and Vietnam and ? The headband does wear out and become damaged so has been replaced last in 1974.. if only there was a way to find out whom the number belongs to on the shell strap.

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That's a fair assessment, and it would be nearly impossible to track down that number as no databases exist for Army serial numbers from the 1960s, and Social Security Numbers started being used as serial numbers around 1969.  

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7 hours ago, MattS said:

That's a fair assessment, and it would be nearly impossible to track down that number as no databases exist for Army serial numbers from the 1960s, and Social Security Numbers started being used as serial numbers around 1969.  

Thanks i did not know that being from the uk. So they must have had some records of who fought? Or do they not make them public?  

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Please remember that these helmets & covers were used all over the world for at least a decade or more.

 

My M1 helmet that I was issued at Ft Lewis had a "been there" look when I turned it in two years later and went to Germany, where I was issued another set, that had the been-there look when I turned in in three years later to back to Ft Lewis, etc.

 

Unless you have an unshakeable chain of custody straight from a veteran who brought it back from Vietnam, it is highly likely that the helmet spent it's life in the US or someplace else like Germany.

 

I saved the cover off my first helmet, but there's no way I was going to have to buy a helmet just for a keepsake.  The covers were cheap enough to replace and make a small souvenir.

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I have posted this before and its a real in country helmet. One thing that stands out is that reddish hue to everything. Much of Vietnam has red clay. A guy I chat with on this site still has his Nam jungle boots and he told me they also have that reddish hue from humping around in that red clay. Not every in country helmet has that hue, but look at the cover at the brim, It has always been on that helmet.

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One more thing to think about is what it looks like under a UV light. My helmet shows finger smears, splatters and droplets and organic material all over it. 

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16 hours ago, Paul marsden said:

Thanks i did not know that being from the uk. So they must have had some records of who fought? Or do they not make them public?  

I'm sure the Department of Veteran's Affairs does, but it is not publicly accessible. In the US, military records are only made public after 62 years.

https://www.archives.gov/veterans/military-service-records

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