M1903 Springfield Dated 11-17 Value?

[GUMP]

I recently acquired two M1903 Springfield rifles from a local private (non-dealer/non-collector) source.  Both were forgotten, left-over pieces recovered by a plumbing contractor in the basement of an old VFW post.  I am not a firearms specialist, especially when it comes to U.S. firearms of WW1 vintage, so I could really use some input from fellow USMF members as to what is considered a realistic "market value" for a M1903 Springfield rifle serial-numbered 740675 with a barrel dated 11-17?  Thanks in advance for any help and/or guidance that you are willing to share!

 

- GUMP

[GUMP]

The Standard Catalog of Military Firearms (2nd edition, copyright 2003) by Ned Schwing gives the following information: 

 

 

[GUMP]

The Blue Book of Gun Values (29th edition, copyright 2008) by S.P. Fjestad gives the following information:

 

 

[101CH47]

About the only good use for those price books is as a door stop, they are always grossly inaccurate when it comes to values.  Even if they had been accurate at the time they were printed the market has changed greatly in the years since.  Using a 2008 and 2013 editions as a reference for pricing?  Good Lord, throw those things away.
 

 

[GWS]

Originality and condition are the two of the main factors that  determine value.  Virtually every part of each rifle would have to be looked at to determine if it was original or at least original to the time frame of the rifle. The rifle in question is in a scant grip stock which is not original to the 1917-18 time frame, but to much later 1903A-3 configurations. The serial number and barrel date are in the correct time frame for each other and are probably original so that's a plus.  The best evaluation would be one done in person by a knowledgeable collector who is thoroughly familiar  with this era of 1903 rifles. Online evaluations are worth about what you pay for them, knowlegable eyeballs with the rifle in hand are by far the best type of evaluation. Please don't take this wrong, I'm not running your rifles down,  just trying to help you get the most practical and honest evaluation you can. If there are any military shows in your area, there would probably be someone there who can look at them or at least refer you to someone in your area that can.  Take time if you can and learn everything about them before putting a price on them. Hope this helps you some.

 

                                                                                                                                                                         Steve 

[GUMP]

7 hours ago, 101CH47 said:

About the only good use for those price books is as a door stop, they are always grossly inaccurate when it comes to values.  Even if they had been accurate at the time they were printed the market has changed greatly in the years since.  Using a 2008 and 2013 editions as a reference for pricing?  Good Lord, throw those things away.

 

I would agree that gun values have changed greatly in the years since those two books were published, but - as a general rule - the prices of military firearms have not been dropping.  In fact, quite the contrary, although I'm sure there are probably some exceptions. So even this outdated and inaccurate price information has its usefulness, IMO.  Remember what Confucius said: "Nothing is useless - even broken watch tells the correct time twice per day!"  :) 

[GUMP]

6 hours ago, GWS said:

Originality and condition are the two of the main factors that  determine value.  Virtually every part of each rifle would have to be looked at to determine if it was original or at least original to the time frame of the rifle. The rifle in question is in a scant grip stock which is not original to the 1917-18 time frame, but to much later 1903A-3 configurations. The serial number and barrel date are in the correct time frame for each other and are probably original so that's a plus.  The best evaluation would be one done in person by a knowledgeable collector who is thoroughly familiar  with this era of 1903 rifles. Online evaluations are worth about what you pay for them, knowledgeable eyeballs with the rifle in hand are by far the best type of evaluation. Please don't take this wrong, I'm not running your rifles down,  just trying to help you get the most practical and honest evaluation you can. If there are any military shows in your area, there would probably be someone there who can look at them or at least refer you to someone in your area that can.  Take time if you can and learn everything about them before putting a price on them. Hope this helps you some.

 

                                                                                                                                                                         Steve 

That's good advice, Steve - thank you.  I will proceed discreetly along those lines.  Unfortunately, my previous experience at gun shows has shown that people are more interested to buy what I have at a price that they offer, much more than being interested in helping me to determine a fair market value.  The proverbial vultures come down from the trees - I think that many of us have probably experienced something along those lines...

[topdcnut]

Are you certain that these do not actually belong to the government yet?

[ccyooper]

36 minutes ago, topdcnut said:

Are you certain that these do not actually belong to the government yet?

Lol, just because the fellows at the vfw may have lost or forgotten them doesn’t mean that TACOM has.  Since they are not in the best condition with replacement parts, etc I would use the CMP recent sales as a starting reference point. 

[GWS]

1 hour ago, GUMP said:

That's good advice, Steve - thank you.  I will proceed discreetly along those lines.  Unfortunately, my previous experience at gun shows has shown that people are more interested to buy what I have at a price that they offer, much more than being interested in helping me to determine a fair market value.  The proverbial vultures come down from the trees - I think that many of us have probably experienced something along those lines...

         A military show would be my first preference, though there are sometimes some hawks and vultures there too!  Just tell them it's not for sale but you just want to find out more about it. That usually shoo's away most of the predatory birds! Unless you really need to sell it fast, I would plan on going to as many shows as you can until you at least get a consensus of what you've got.  A couple of books on the 1903 would probably be a big help too.   Since you already have 2 rifles, the books would be a good investment and what you learn from them may more than offset their cost.  Out  of curiosity, could you also post a few more pics of the other rifle?  It has the correct S-type stock and may be the more valuable of the 2.  Thanks,

 

                                                                                Steve

[GUMP]

Posting more pics of the other (1942-dated) rifle, as requested...

 

[Scottz63]

That second one is actually very early, 1905 made. It has a WW2 replacement barrel on it. Most likely refurbed for WW2

[dustin]

Perhaps instead of traveling half way across the country and back attending gun shows you could buy a Book! The best thing to do is educate yourself on what you have, exactly. 

There are a few out there about Springfield's that will spell everything out for you on originality from tip-to-top. Like stated above, value is pending the parts and overall condition. The pictures posted thus far do not fair well in the "condition" grading category, worn finish, major pitting and surface rust. In those outdated price guides, note the "subtract 80% if reworked". Noted already was that the stock is not original to a 1917 rifle, and you can probably bet it has arsenal rebuild parts or "reworked". Coupled with condition issues, you have a "shooter" grade Springfield. 

[MWalsh]

It appears no one answered your original  question as to value.

 

The one with the 1917 dated barrel appears reparked and thus probably rebuilt for WW2.

 

The one with the 1942 barrel, same thing. 

 

Who knows, both may have more than one rebuild. It’s tough to say without really looking closely at parts and stock cartouches, etc.

 

But based on the few pics here and what I can see just right here, I will venture an opinion. 

 

My opinion, others may disagree, is that the 1917 dated barrel is probably a $650 gun due to the condition. Maybe even $600. Looks like it has rust and pits? The 1942 dated barrel, I think is a $750 gun, just due to it appearing to look nicer. That is if you realistically wanted to sell them, and assuming bores are OK, stocks not broken or cracked, etc. If you want to sit on them a bit and maybe sell them, add another $100 to each. If you want to price like many gun show dealers then add $200 to each LOL and expect to haul them around a while.

 

 

[topdcnut]

It really seems that this whole post is at least ill-advised

[GUMP]

2 hours ago, topdcnut said:

It really seems that this whole post is at least ill-advised

 

ill-advised► adjective: performed, carried out, or done without the benefit of wise counsel or careful prior deliberation. Resulting from bad advice; injudicious; tending to erroneous or injurious consequences.

 

Hmmm... I'm not quite sure if your comment is a jab at me for starting this thread or an insult to several forum members that have taken the time and made the effort to contribute to this thread.  Generally speaking, I subscribe to the philosophy that if I cannot make a positive contribution, then I prefer not not make any contribution at all.  I fail to see any positivity in your comment.

 

 

[Charlie Flick]

Hello Gump:

 

Thanks for the post.   As you have learned both of your rifles have been rebuilt at least once.  That is not at all unusual but it does adversely affect collector interest and, therefore, market value. 

 

Your rifles are pretty dirty and could stand a careful, thorough cleaning which, if done properly, will make them more presentable and more attractive to potential buyers.  Be aware that a carelessly performed cleaning (ie, steel wool, sandpapering of the stocks, etc.) will result in a substantial diminishment in value.

 

As a starting point on values I suggest that you take a look at completed auctions on www.gunbroker.com for M1903 rifles and that should give you a sense of what the market is doing on Springfields these days.  The suggestion that you look at the Civilian Marksmanship Program site may also yield some good information for you.

 

I hope that information is helpful to you.  Good luck.

 

Regards,

Charlie

[solcarlus]

Bonjour.

 

For fun and calm the spirits

 

Sol.

 

 

[GWS]

Gump "Posting more pics of the other (1942-dated) rifle, as requested.."

Thanks for the additional photos.  The receiver was indeed made about March of 1905, and  may have been chambered for the .30-03 originally.  Sadly it was rebuilt at some point, possibly when it was re-barreled.  So, as some have previously mentioned, it has a value a a shooter grade only. A nice bright shiny bore would be a plus, the minus is the early receiver  as some potential buyers would object to the below 800,000 serial number as a possible safety issue.  I still like though, and would hazard a guess of $600-$800 depending on bore condition.

Thanks for posting both of these.

 

                                                                                              Steve

[Rhscott]

On 1/22/2021 at 5:19 PM, MWalsh said:

It appears no one answered your original  question as to value.

 

The one with the 1917 dated barrel appears reparked and thus probably rebuilt for WW2.

 

The one with the 1942 barrel, same thing. 

 

Who knows, both may have more than one rebuild. It’s tough to say without really looking closely at parts and stock cartouches, etc.

 

But based on the few pics here and what I can see just right here, I will venture an opinion. 

 

My opinion, others may disagree, is that the 1917 dated barrel is probably a $650 gun due to the condition. Maybe even $600. Looks like it has rust and pits? The 1942 dated barrel, I think is a $750 gun, just due to it appearing to look nicer. That is if you realistically wanted to sell them, and assuming bores are OK, stocks not broken or cracked, etc. If you want to sit on them a bit and maybe sell them, add another $100 to each. If you want to price like many gun show dealers then add $200 to each LOL and expect to haul them around a while.

 

 

I agree basically.   Both appear to be typical WW2 rebuilds that many VFWs got.  Both are low number actions and these have had lower values for a long time. 

Prices shown above are totally in line with the market and CMP prices at the Alabama store.

[GUMP]

Thank you very much.  Multiple very useful "nuggets" of information have been shared here and I really appreciate that.  I understand much better now the important distinction between rifles with original factory blue and the re-built/re-furbished parkerized examples, which clearly explains and justifies the pricing differentials.  It's interesting to learn that M1903's followed a similar "life path" like many/most M1 Garands and M1 carbines...

 

 

[GWS]

 

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, GUMP said:

Thank you very much.  Multiple very useful "nuggets" of information have been shared here and I really appreciate that.  I understand much better now the important distinction between rifles with original factory blue and the re-built/re-furbished parkerized examples, which clearly explains and justifies the pricing differentials.  It's interesting to learn that M1903's followed a similar "life path" like many/most M1 Garands and M1 carbines...

 

 

                You've got it now!  One thing that has helped me tremendously  over many years whether it's weapons or other militaria  collecting is to see as many examples of really nice and and all original items that you can. After only a short time, you will know what the item should look like!  Its like a mental picture that can be used for years to come.  You may not remember every minor detail, but thats what books are for. I still carry a briefcase of select books to my local militaria show and many times to gun shows. Armed with both a mental picture and a book,  you will put yourself at a huge advantage in making a good call whether buying or selling. But it does take some time and a bit of effort. Good luck in your sale and thanks for posting here.

 

                                                                            Steve