Flag from the USS Cotten or USS Davison, research help needed please

[dhcoleterracina]

I recently obtained this flag from the daughter in law of the vet. Her husband had died some years ago and I believe she is now in the process of downsizing. The Veteran is Lawrence Randal King. She says that he was on two destroyers during WW2, the USS Cotten and the USS Davison. I'm gently trying to get more info but this is all I have now. An officer from the Cotten wrote a book about the ships' WW2 experiences and I have that coming and hoping King is within. The flag is heavily worn (my favorite) and it was made at Mare Island in Sept 1943, size 11.  The Cotten saw long service in the Pacific, while the Davison was in the ETO. Seems strange for a transfer from the ETO to the Pacific but I suppose it happened. 

 

Is it possible to check the crew list for Lawrence King? Or can someone point me to the source? Thanks

 

 

 

[dhcoleterracina]

closeup

 

 

[tdurbinmas]

Really nice No 11 ensign. Hopefully the crew member history works out. 

[dhcoleterracina]

Thanks, she just told me that he was an electricians mate on one ship and then a chief electricians mate on another. Since the USS Davison set sail in 1942, that might have been his first posting. The USS Cotten came into service in late 1943 so I think the flag came from that ship. After the war he worked at an air force base. I had never heard of the Cotten or Davison before. The Cotten's Pacific history is amazing and extensive. This will be a fun research project. 

[stratasfan]

Here is a WWII Draft Reg card for a gent who I think is yours:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here are the Muster Rolls for your gent:

 

 

I'm going through them now to see if any have notes or info, and will post any I find shortly!

[stratasfan]

April 1940:

 

June 1940:

 

 

I actually saved the images for each Muster Roll . . . if you are interested, send me a PM with your email address, and I can start sending you images for all those MRs. 

 

[Mr.Jerry]

Great Flag!

[dhcoleterracina]

Thank you Stratasfan, exactly what I was looking for. Email sent via PM. 

[Longbranch]

ETO to PTO transfers happened more often than you’d think, especially if the sailor joined up fairly early.

[dhcoleterracina]

Longbranch, as you say, this is what seems to have happened with King although I'm still going thru the documents that Stratasfan gave me. He enlisted in 1936 and was Hon. Discharged in mid 1940. He's back again in the mid 1942 era and assigned to the USS Davison for several months. Then in July 1943 he's assigned to the USS Cotten. July 43 was when the Cotten was launched. He's with the Cotten until at least March of 1945. The USS Cotten was very active in the Pacific earning 9 battle stars. 

[P-40Warhawk]

Transfers from one ship to another were routine, if not somewhat common during WWII. The biggest reason for this was a push to rotate experienced men back stateside for assignment to newly constructed vessels, in the hope that they would be the 'old salts' (experienced sailors) amongst the newly drafted greenhorns usually making up a majority of a newly commissioned vessel's crew.

It's difficult to be sure since the vet did not leave a note specifically saying where (and when) it originated, but if he was discharged for good at the end of the war, then it's most likely from COTTEN, since he was a plankowner.

Here's his findagrave https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/73661202/lawrence-randal-king

[dhcoleterracina]

What you say makes a lot of sense. Thanks

 

This sailor actually brought home three flags. A bright and clean Mare Island #7 dated Jan 1941. This flag doesn't even look flown at all. It was found by moths at some point in a few areas. Most of these flags seem to have this issue. There was also a slightly tattered and stained #9 with four grommets. Not as tattered and stained as the first one posted. 

 

From what I've learned about King, he was on two ships pre war. The USS Pensacola and the USS Pennsylvania. During the war he was on the USS Davison and USS Cotten and in 1946 he was on two ships, the USS Arthur Middleton and the LST 970. I think that I can eliminate the pre war ships from these flags. It will be difficult to pin down the three flags among the other four ships. They all flew in service of our country and that's why I like them. 

 

 

[sigsaye]

Just as an aside, as a retired Signalman, I always wrote on the tabling (that canvas part), the name of the ship and the date I turned toe flag over to the recipient.   We went through a bunch of flags. Steaming underway, you may get 3-4 weeks from a flag, and it needed changing. 

[dhcoleterracina]

Thanks Sigsaye, I learn something new every time. 

 

When I buy flags I always tag them and get as much information as I can get from the seller and log that information into a logbook. After a while one flag looks like another. I always wait until I have the flag in hand before asking if they know of any history. Most, no, but occasionally the flood gates open. With regard to WW2 flags, I find very few have the ship or owner info on the tabling. I'm glad you did it, it preserves history. 

[Salvage Sailor]

2 hours ago, sigsaye said:

Just as an aside, as a retired Signalman, I always wrote on the tabling (that canvas part), the name of the ship and the date I turned toe flag over to the recipient.   We went through a bunch of flags. Steaming underway, you may get 3-4 weeks from a flag, and it needed changing. 

 

Same same with the flags and pennants I have from the flag lockers aboard my ships.  The skivvy wavers marked them before giving me the worn standards.

 

[dhcoleterracina]

There must be many guys on a ship, who decides who gets one? There isn't enough for everyone. 

[Salvage Sailor]

The Signalmen 'own' them, so they decide unless they're told to by 'higher authority'.

 

Mostly they end up with Ops pukes and Zeros (Officers) - SM, QM, OS, EW, ET, etc and sundry Deck Apes (Helmsman, EOT, Lookouts, etc.)

 

 

[dhcoleterracina]

Thanks

[sigsaye]

10 hours ago, dhcoleterracina said:

There must be many guys on a ship, who decides who gets one? There isn't enough for everyone. 

As Salvage says, the Signalmen basically decide. There are flags and pennants that are reserved for Special occasions. Like if something special happens, the ensign that was flying goes to the CO, or Commissioning pennant if he prefers. Retirements, get a flag. Then there are flags to buddies. Ensigns, jacks and pennants, don’t last that long in use. Most ships carried 3 different sizes (determined by length of hull). “Holiday”, which are the largest and generally only flown from the stern in port on Sundays and holidays, the “Daily” which, as it sounds, is flown every day, and also, supposed to be your “At Sea ensign”. Most of us used a smaller (cheaper) size for st sea, these were referred to as “Steamers”.   All of these are expensive and come out of Sigs operating funds. When we deployed, I usually had 20 each Dailies and Steamers. I would try to have 10 Holidays too. Remember, the Dailies and Holidays had corresponding Jacks. I would always have a couple in order each quarter, sand would do my best to convince the CO, to not fly anything at sea, (there are special rules for that, intended to save your flags). Usually, 4 months into a cruise, I’d have garbage bags full of frayed and filthy ensigns. Soot from the stacks and grease from cabling was rough on them. These we would give away to whoever wanted one.
 

Sometimes, we would trade them off. My wife was in nursing school. She needed a bunch of medical equipment, ( forceps, scissors, sutcher kits, stuff like that. Made a deal with the HM1, traded an ensign and Jack for a box of goodies. 
 

signal flags were a different story. Never seemed to be much interest in them. Occasionally, someone would want their initials or something, so we’d trade those. Mostly though, worn out signal flags had the snap hooks and rings cut off, then were cut up for paint or polishing rags. 

 

 

[dhcoleterracina]

Great info from guys who were there and did it. Thank you both again, quite educational. 

[Dave]

When I left my first ship, they were in the process of replacing the ensign as we had gone through a typhoon at the beginning of deployment and it was in rough shape. I knew the SM1 really well and had talked to him about getting the worn-out flag as my farewell gift.  As soon as "Moored, shift colors" was called on the 1MC when we were pierside in Saipan (where I was leaving the ship), I bounded up to the bridge and Sigs gave me the nicely folded ensign, which I still have. 

 

I tried the same thing when I was attached to a Japanese ship, but I had two of my Sailors with me and sure enough...both of them hit their Chief signalman up for a flag before I did (they still use the WW2-style rising sun flag, so it was a cool souvenir). Unfortunately, they depleted his spare ensigns and alas...I didn't get one. Bummer. 

 

 

[sigsaye]

3 hours ago, Dave said:

When I left my first ship, they were in the process of replacing the ensign as we had gone through a typhoon at the beginning of deployment and it was in rough shape. I knew the SM1 really well and had talked to him about getting the worn-out flag as my farewell gift.  As soon as "Moored, shift colors" was called on the 1MC when we were pierside in Saipan (where I was leaving the ship), I bounded up to the bridge and Sigs gave me the nicely folded ensign, which I still have. 

 

I tried the same thing when I was attached to a Japanese ship, but I had two of my Sailors with me and sure enough...both of them hit their Chief signalman up for a flag before I did (they still use the WW2-style rising sun flag, so it was a cool souvenir). Unfortunately, they depleted his spare ensigns and alas...I didn't get one. Bummer. 

 

 

Sorry Sir!  We take care of our own first. But, back in the day, I’d have hooked you up if we  had  steamed together.