fordmustanggt_350 Posted January 14, 2021 Share #1 Posted January 14, 2021 How can you tell a WWI Guidon to a WWII Guidon? I have never really seen anyway to differentiate between the two. The regiment itself existed in WWI and WWII the same so the unit history can not tell if this is WWI or WWII. Any help is appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Jerry Posted January 14, 2021 Share #2 Posted January 14, 2021 WWI ones are bigger. There may a;so be a QM tag inside the sleeve with a date. I would say that is a nice WWII one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everforward Posted January 14, 2021 Share #3 Posted January 14, 2021 Correct me if I’m wrong, but I am of the understanding that Infantry rifle companies in WW1 did not have Guidons, but Artillery Regiments did.....the larger size Infantry Guidons are pre-WW2, but not exactly sure when the size reduction took place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12thengr Posted January 15, 2021 Share #4 Posted January 15, 2021 In 'The National Geographic', October, 1917 issue. 'Our Flag Number' infantry guidons are neither mentioned or shown. If that means they didn't exist I don't know but Cavalry, artillery, signal corps, hospital corps and engineers are shown and mentioned in the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted January 15, 2021 Share #5 Posted January 15, 2021 Interesting, now there's one thing I wasn't aware of, would of seen no reason why the Infantry wouldn't of had a Guidon, but here's L Company 132nd Infantry 33rd Division, late 1919, yes not seeing a Guidon, would think it would be prominent front and center right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted January 15, 2021 Share #6 Posted January 15, 2021 I Company 102nd Infantry 26th Division 1919. And G Company 315th Infantry 79th Division 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12thengr Posted January 15, 2021 Share #7 Posted January 15, 2021 Yes , I have the yard longs from company 'K' 361st Inf 1917 at Camp Lewis and 1919 at Camp Merrit and neither feature a guidon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted January 15, 2021 Share #8 Posted January 15, 2021 A 30s Infantry Guidons large sized as mentioned. B Co 16th Inf 1st Div NY NY. G Co 174th Infantry, 44th Division Buoffalo NY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Jerry Posted January 20, 2021 Share #9 Posted January 20, 2021 Interesting- I never really thought of that, but I don't know that I have seen a WW1 era infantry guidon. I need to look into that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nirvana Posted January 23, 2021 Share #10 Posted January 23, 2021 I bid on this. I’m the reason it went for so much money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmustanggt_350 Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share #11 Posted January 23, 2021 Nirvana, that is fine. I did not bid on it. I feel fairly confident that it dates to WWII so I was not interested in it. If it dated to WWI, which I am very surprised to find that they did not have guidons, I would have won. Thanks, Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everforward Posted September 6, 2021 Share #12 Posted September 6, 2021 Thought I’d add some more photo evidence to this thread……this is a pic of the freshly-returned Battery C of (likely) the 313th Field Artillery Battalion, 80th Division. The pic clearly shows their guidon waving in the wind as they march inland from the docks at Newport News shortly following their arrival at port, late May 1919. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Hate Moths Posted September 6, 2021 Share #13 Posted September 6, 2021 As 12thengr stated, no mention of Infantry guidons in The National Geographic, October 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted September 7, 2021 Share #14 Posted September 7, 2021 Isn't that strange the Infantry did not have Guidons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everforward Posted September 7, 2021 Share #15 Posted September 7, 2021 9 hours ago, patches said: Isn't that strange the Infantry did not have Guidons! It is, or at least it is on the surface….I would think that somewhere a document will surface providing a reason for it, and with luck I hope to stumble upon it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hink441 Posted September 7, 2021 Share #16 Posted September 7, 2021 I would think if the infantry had guidons in WW1 then they would mirror the crossed rifles (M1903s) the Infantry Officers wore on their collars. Post 1923 the Infantry Officer wore crossed 1795 Muskets as they are worn today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupercus Posted January 9, 2022 Share #17 Posted January 9, 2022 Its been a bit since I've read it so bear with me... The 1917 soldiers manual states that every rifle company is to carry two signal flags with a unique color and symbol scheme that identifies the battalion and company (simple geometric shapes). My gut tells me these could have stood in, but I've never seen an actual example. Ive only ever seen the generic red/white Signal Corps flags. Does anyone know if these actual existed or were just an idea that made it into doctrine without actually being implemented? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupercus Posted January 9, 2022 Share #18 Posted January 9, 2022 Everything I've read is that it originated in the mounted forces. Such units functioned as small mobile units so it makes sense tactically. At the beginning of WWI infantry regiments still matched under the regimental colors as massed infantry. By the end of the war the colours were relegated to the rear and parade grounds with companies, platoons and squads being the normal tactical units. As such It would make sense to me that company guidons would be an evolution out of the conflic rather than preceding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdurbinmas Posted January 10, 2022 Share #19 Posted January 10, 2022 I think the fact that the infantry guidelines were missing from the National Geographic edition was just an oversight. The chief of infantry flag existed at that time. And it was the crossed rifles on a blue field just like the guide on. Here are a couple of examples of the signal flag variant mentioned above From my collection along with the 1916 US Army Signal Guide reference explaining the designators for the flags. I also have a very large guidon from the turn of the century. It has a very old quartermaster label. It measures approximately 3’ x 4’ the largest one I have. Hopefully other examples are out there and people can share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupercus Posted January 10, 2022 Share #20 Posted January 10, 2022 Thank you so much for providing the info on the signal flags. I just looked up the Oct 1917 National Geographic and it has that information as well. I keep finding references to guidons for mounted and mechanized units but not for their dismounted counter parts. Ie Mounted engineers authorized, but nothing for dismounted engineers. Can you get measurements from the signal flags? I you like to sew up a repro for my unit. Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted January 11, 2022 Share #21 Posted January 11, 2022 tdurbinmas, Thank you very much for posting your information and examples! A couple of years ago, I purchased a signal flag (now I know the proper term) for Company F, 3rd Infantry, Indiana National Guard. It was attributed to a soldier from that company who served with them prior to and during WWI. Also, I purchased an image of Company H, 3rd Inf ING. The link to the thread that I originally posted in 2019 is shown below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdurbinmas Posted January 18, 2022 Share #22 Posted January 18, 2022 On 1/9/2022 at 10:54 PM, Lupercus said: Thank you so much for providing the info on the signal flags. I just looked up the Oct 1917 National Geographic and it has that information as well. I keep finding references to guidons for mounted and mechanized units but not for their dismounted counter parts. Ie Mounted engineers authorized, but nothing for dismounted engineers. Can you get measurements from the signal flags? I you like to sew up a repro for my unit. Thanks, The signal flags measure 23”x23”. The ties are 10”. The loop in the middle is 2”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupercus Posted January 24, 2022 Share #23 Posted January 24, 2022 Thanks for the information! This is the repro I made for my unit. The letters didn't come out as clean as I'd like though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdurbinmas Posted January 24, 2022 Share #24 Posted January 24, 2022 FANCY!!!! Good repro, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted May 31, 2022 Share #25 Posted May 31, 2022 These are the WWI Guidons for the 101st Ammunition Train 26th Division, the one with the Crossed Cannons may be a Post WWI one from the 20-30s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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