USMC M1 helmet with cover

[Blackhawk]

Hi,

 

I am interested in a USMC helmet for my collection.

What are your oppinions about this one? https://www.ebay.com/itm/264939364330

Is this an all original WW2 helmet?

 

Best regards,

Lukas

 

[sgtdorango]

The cover looks legit👍🏻.....mike

[Blackhawk]

Thank you very much for the fast reply Mike! 👍

 

[Wake1941]

Seller puts items together, so I’m highly doubtful it’s an issue set. All original parts but likely put together 

[John4022]

I'm debating getting this one too. The seller did say in his description he put it together. 

[Paddyd00]

I assume the OD7 straps are replacements on the Fixed Loop as well.  And is the liner possible post war liner? With the Green webbing? (could be pics and the webbing is khaki).  So I would say this isn’t  “All Original WW2” in answer to your question friend. Hope this is helpful!

Z

[Paddyd00]

Liner may be fine. Hard to photograph these sometimes IMO. 

[shadawg]

shell and liner are kinda meh, but cover looks great. i'd probably end up putting it on a different lid since it is already put together

 

[Blackhawk]

Thanks for the replies!

 

I requested some more pics of the chin strap and the shell without cover. Let's see...

 

When the chin strap is also replaced I think it doesn't pay off just to get the cover.

 

Best regards,

Lukas

[ArchangelDM]

Hi Lukas

 

It really depends what you are looking for, if you were looking for a period World War II camouflage cover then this pattern is the third pattern and very very late war. These  covers were seen in use in the Korean War and in the Vietnam war. We are yet to pull up a clear picture with these in use in World War II. I believe they were used on Iwo Jima And Okinawa but as stated on many threads we are yet to see a high-definition picture to prove this.

If it where me and I wanted a World War II United States Marine Corps camo cover and helmet I would go for the slitted version, type 1 or type 2. Not to be confused  by the 1953 blue anchor version.

You then have to take into account the 1st and 2nd type  World War II marine camouflage covers are going for around 600 to $700 at the moment. That’s just for the camouflage cover then you have to get a fixed bail which is going to set you back a few hundred bucks.

The cover in the eBay auction is an original cover but as explained earlier would not necessarily fit a World War II scenario if you want a solid WW2 set. 

 

If I can be of any more help on the subject let me know 

 

yours

 

Dean 
 

 

[Blacksmith]

Yeah, I figured the ol’ clock on the wall indicated it was time for somebody to ‘slitt-ify’ this topic.  

 

While Dean has some knowledge on USMC bits, so do many others, and I disagree with his assessment on cover patterns.  

 

The published works on the topic of WWII USMC camouflage helmet covers, and cited documentation, states that covers with NO slits came FIRST.  Then, the cover with 16 buttonholes on the dome were 2nd, followed by the 3rd pattern with buttonholes added to each flap.  This is on pps 46-47 of the “bible” on WWII USMC equipment, “Grunt Gear”; I would pay special attention to the footnote pointing to the National Archives schematic for the 3rd pattern (dome and flap slits) cover, dated September of 1942.  

 

But wait Blacksmith, has there ever been stuff published in a book that we learned later was erroneous?  Sure, and while I don’t think this is, let’s go to the idea of something evidentiary, related to the use of non-slit covers in use in WWII.  To that end, please see below, just ONE (of many) examples.  This is a screen grab from combat footage on Iwo.

 

Bottom line, in my view, there has NEVER been a question whether non-slit / non-EGA covers were used in WWII.  I actually have no idea where that notion is even coming from.  Non-slit covers are as much WWII as the ones with slits.

 

 

[ArchangelDM]

2 hours ago, Blacksmith said:

Yeah, I figured the ol’ clock on the wall indicated it was time for somebody to ‘slitt-ify’ this topic.  

 

While Dean has some knowledge on USMC bits, so do many others, and I disagree with his assessment on cover patterns.  

 

The published works on the topic of WWII USMC camouflage helmet covers, and cited documentation, states that covers with NO slits came FIRST.  Then, the cover with 16 buttonholes on the dome were 2nd, followed by the 3rd pattern with buttonholes added to each flap.  This is on pps 46-47 of the “bible” on WWII USMC equipment, “Grunt Gear”; I would pay special attention to the footnote pointing to the National Archives schematic for the 3rd pattern (dome and flap slits) cover, dated September of 1942.  

 

But wait Blacksmith, has there ever been stuff published in a book that we learned later was erroneous?  Sure, and while I don’t think this is, let’s go to the idea of something evidentiary, related to the use of non-slit covers in use in WWII.  To that end, please see below, just ONE (of many) examples.  This is a screen grab from combat footage on Iwo.

 

Bottom line, in my view, there has NEVER been a question whether non-slit / non-EGA covers were used in WWII.  I actually have no idea where that notion is even coming from.  Non-slit covers are as much WWII as the ones with slits.

 

 

Im with you Blacksmith 

i just think late war rather than early on, and for me after looking at hundreds of archive photos And having several named slitted USMC helmets in the collection Im happier with the slitted versions rather than the Non slit camos. 

So if I was wanting a Ww2 USMC cover I would go with the thousands of photos of marines wearing slitted covers And go for that one instead of a few low Rez photos of 1 or 2 marines maybe wearing a non slit cover. 
 

just my 2 pence 

 

- Dean 

 

 

 

[ArchangelDM]

Also to add, I know 2 helmets that are named with a non slit cover and 1 with a unis Mark

[Blackhawk]

Hi Dean and Blacksmith,

 

Thanks!

 

In the last year I saw three or four near mint covers for sale here at the forum.

All described as 1st pattern without slits.

 

So I thought 1st pattern covers don't have slits since I saw the schematic drawing that Blacksmith noted what shows the cover with 16 buttonholes at the dome and one each at the flaps.

 

For my display an early one would fit best.

Everytime I watch documentaries I am focused on the helmets, but it's hard to tell if there are slits or not.

 

I am curious what's to see on the hi-res pictures! :)

 

Best regards,

Lukas

[Blacksmith]

2 hours ago, ArchangelDM said:

Im with you Blacksmith 

i just think late war rather than early on, and for me after looking at hundreds of archive photos And having several named slitted USMC helmets in the collection Im happier with the slitted versions rather than the Non slit camos. 

So if I was wanting a Ww2 USMC cover I would go with the thousands of photos of marines wearing slitted covers And go for that one instead of a few low Rez photos of 1 or 2 marines maybe wearing a non slit cover. 
 

just my 2 pence 

 

- Dean 

 

 

 

LOL...  Ok Dean.  Seriously, it’s whatever makes you happy - like it should be for everyone.  Your bias is obvious, if just by virtue of you not mentioning that the “thousands” of slitted cover photos are also “low Rez”.  Again, you have your lens, and I have mine, but I couldn’t just ‘take a powder’ while you imply that no-slit covers may not be WWII.  

 

That is (at best) an indefensible position.   There are far more than 1 or 2 references to the contrary.

 

 

[ArchangelDM]

8 hours ago, Blacksmith said:

LOL...  Ok Dean.  Seriously, it’s whatever makes you happy - like it should be for everyone.  Your bias is obvious, if just by virtue of you not mentioning that the “thousands” of slitted cover photos are also “low Rez”.  Again, you have your lens, and I have mine, but I couldn’t just ‘take a powder’ while you imply that no-slit covers may not be WWII.  

 

That is (at best) an indefensible position.   There are far more than 1 or 2 references to the contrary.

 

 

Totally agree mate 

and once again I believe the non slit version was late Ww2 and was used. 
just wish we had more clearer photos of them like we do the slitted version. 
 

yours

Dean 

[Blueprint]

Here’s also a IMO good picture of a Marine wearing a non slitted 1st pattern Cover. 
 

But hopefully there will be better pics in the near future! 

 

 

 

 

[ArchangelDM]

2 hours ago, Blueprint said:

Here’s also a IMO good picture of a Marine wearing a non slitted 1st pattern Cover. 
 

But hopefully there will be better pics in the near future! 

 

 

 

 

that’s a great pic Hannes and one I also believe in

hope your well and happy 2021

[Blueprint]

2 hours ago, ArchangelDM said:

that’s a great pic Hannes and one I also believe in

hope your well and happy 2021

Thanks Dean! 

The footage of this picture was in one of the History Channels HD documentarys about the PTO. 

Hope your doing well too! 
I‘m currently waiting on my first hawley liner with early M1 FB Idd to a recon marine. 
 

Going to share it in the next few days! 
 

Yours 

Hannes 

 

[ArchangelDM]

1 minute ago, Blueprint said:

Thanks Dean! 

The footage of this picture was in one of the History Channels HD documentarys about the PTO. 

Hope your doing well too! 
I‘m currently waiting on my first hawley liner with early M1 FB Idd to a recon marine. 
 

Going to share it in the next few days! 
 

Yours 

Hannes 

 

I’m looking forward to that my friend ! 
 

take care and stay safe 

 

- Dean 

 

[pump 150]

As one who has been discussing this "notion" here for many years now (nearly eight..whew!), I'll chime in a little since this one has turned to the discussion of foliage slits.  I fully respect all opinions on this matter as I'm only trying to find the truth as best possible.  As I've said before, the original quest was to try and find when the "3rd Model" began issue.  That has now completely turned 180 degrees to trying to determine when the so called "1st Model" was issued instead.  

 

First off, my feelings of admiration to all of those authors who have previously taken their valuable time writing books for all of us collectors and "would be" researchers to study and learn from has already been stated in the thread I started which the mods here felt worthy of pinning at the top of this board. (Post #342, currently Page 14).  I have had the opportunity to talk with to Mr. Tulkoff personally in the past and have great respect for both him and his dedicated work.

 

Thanks to the efforts of many shown on this forum, more information has been found over the years.  

 

As per the photo document on page 47 of Grunt Gear showing the helmet cover drawing dated September 17, 1942.  Currently there are three known other pages of written specifications detailing the construction of these helmet covers preceding that drawing.  There is no indication found so far printed indicating this is the "third model", "revised", "modified", "change in specification", "amended", etc. showing this is in fact a modification of the first written and produced helmet cover documents.

 

Does that mean its not a modification...heck no.  But there's no other documents currently available showing any other changes over time as we've all actually found on physical remaining examples of these USMC helmet covers.  Unfortunately, so far we only have period photos to go by.

 

The first known dated photograph of this USMC helmet cover showing after the specification date so far is in November 1942, two months after the written spec. date.  (Post #231-#232, currently Page 10).  That helmet cover shows as written in the September specification.

 

As per page 46 of Grunt Gear just for my clarification as I don't currently have this book in my possession.  It describes each "Model" in detail.  The photo at bottom labeled as "2nd pattern helmet cover reversed to tan".  The actual roller pattern does not appear to match what has now been studied and currently found only on the so called "2nd Model", and are there foliage slits in the flaps of that cover indicating it is actually as described in the text being a "3rd Model"? 

 

When was the so called "1st Model" introduced?  I'm still researching that.  But I've already explained in GREAT DETAIL the importance of photo resolution in fully determining  what is actually being seen in these period photos in either direction your opinions lie.  If anyone has high resolution photos showing a non-slit USMC helmet cover in use during WWII, or any found written documentation...please add to the pinned thread!

 

 

[pump 150]

As I got timed out for editing after reading later, just to be clear for any who may think some other unknown documents suddenly appeared.  The three pages of written documents describing construction go with the said drawing, all dated to September 17, 1942 and the only currently known detailed description of the WWII era USMC helmet cover.

 

The November 1942 photo is the earliest known dated example shown of the WWII issue USMC helmet cover witnessed so far.

 

Thanks 

[conn]

pump 150

 

thank you for all your work and dedication to assist in this issue

 

thank you everyone else also for your work

 

semper fi

[Blackhawk]

Hi,

 

Another helmet...

 

It's a later war M1.

What do you think of this cover and the decal?

 

Thanks and best regards,

Lukas

[ArchangelDM]

Cover is a legit original 1st, 2nd pattern 

 

helmet sticker was added post war but who knows when. 
 

- Dean