New m1 helmet acquisition retention band question

[AKC123]

Hello everyone. I just yesterday bought this m1 from a seller on eBay. Haven’t gotten it in hand yet so forgive the pictures. It seems to be a late70’s early 80’s m1 that I’m hoping has stated together as an original piece rather than a put together. The seller said they are an older veteran selling off odds and ends in his garage and that this particular helmet, which is the only one he had for sale, was acquired from the estate sale of another veteran. The thing that’s bothering me a little is the retention band. It doesn’t look quite right and I’m wondering if it’s a repro. If it is then that would throw into question wether this helmet is actually a put together or not. I only have one other m1 that is a put together and is an all early-mid 80’s woodland covered version. I was hoping to get a nice late 70’s style m1 with the Erdl (looks like brown dominant not RDF) cover like the kind you see the marines wearing in Grenada and Lebanon in 83-84. So any opinions would be appreciated. Couldn’t wait until I got it in hand to ask opinions. Thanks

[AKC123]

Also I know the cat eyes arent really seen in the context mentioned but did appear around that time. Also I know of at least one photo of an MP in Grenada after the invasion with cat eyes on his erdl covered m1. Really just wondering if people with more hands on experience think this is a repro band and if they think this helmet is a random put together. Thanks 

[AKC123]

Also one more question if I may, does anyone know when the liner suspension switched to the snap in rather then using the A frame style brackets? I can’t seem to remember and am having trouble finding any info. Seems most info is related to Ww2-vietnam area m1s.

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

The liner change was in 1972 but there was one odd A washer liner contract awarded in FY74. This only applies to the type I ground troops liner the type II parachutists were never made with the removable suspension.

[AKC123]

5 minutes ago, Cap Camouflage Pattern I said:

The liner change was in 1972 but there was one odd A washer liner contract awarded in FY74. This only applies to the type I ground troops liner the type II parachutists were never made with the removable suspension.

Thanks for the reply. I think I remember reading that the yellow-orange color resin was later as well. These aren’t my forte so I appreciate the knowledgeable reply. So everything seems to be 70’s area contracts at least. 

[AKC123]

17 hours ago, Cap Camouflage Pattern I said:

The liner change was in 1972 but there was one odd A washer liner contract awarded in FY74. This only applies to the type I ground troops liner the type II parachutists were never made with the removable suspension.

Does the band look correct for this period do you know? Thanks 

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

It looks fine to me but it's not something I've studied too much.

[john k]

I've never heard of anyone making repro bands with cat eyes.  Repros pop up when anything is bringing in the $$, not a lot of $$ in the cat eye bands.  

 

If I'm reading the DSA codes correctly, it looks like the sweatband is  dated 79  and the cover 76 (I could be wrong, the format of those codes have changed at times)

[AKC123]

7 minutes ago, john k said:

I've never heard of anyone making repro bands with cat eyes.  Repros pop up when anything is bringing in the $$, not a lot of $$ in the cat eye bands.  

 

If I'm reading the DSA codes correctly, it looks like the sweatband is  dated 79  and the cover 76 (I could be wrong, the format of those codes have changed at times)

Yes those are the dates in the contract numbers. It’s hard to make out the date on the contract number for the suspension. Maybe repro wasn’t the right word to use. There are plenty of new manufactured cat eye bands on eBay that say they are NOS surplus but many look a bit different in construction than others and even can be had in colors that Iv never seen on any issue helmet so I’m suspicious. Really I guess I’m just more curious to know if the band looks to be correct for the late 70’s early 80’s period of the helmet and therefore would likely be an original item to the helmet rather than something someone bought to throw on to make it look complete. The color and stitching of the box attachment just look strange as well as the stitching of the eyes themselves but it’s not something Iv studied much either and of course until I have it in hand it’s a bit of a guessing game. I know cat eyes were worn in the early 80’s and can be seen on M1’s worn by rangers and the 82nd in Grenada in 83. Although it appears most of the photos iv found show woodland and RDF covers on those helmets. Whereas the marines in Grenada and Lebanon seem to have worn a wider mix of woodland, RDF, brown dominant ERDL and even Mitchell pattern covers however I haven’t found any photos showing Marines of the period wearing cat eyes in either country. So all this just makes me wonder if this isn’t in fact a later band that someone just picked up to throw on the helmet rather than it being original to the helmet as worn. Anyway, I appreciate everyone’s replies. A bit of minutia probably but it’s the kinda thing I find interesting and want to get right. 

[AKC123]

Also this may be common knowledge to many and likely is to veterans of the period but Iv always thought that if you came across an m1 such as this and the nape strap was missing that it indicates that it was removed from the helmet sometime after it left service and was therefore “incomplete”. While it is incomplete technically, I found a photo of marines at Pearl Airport in Grenada in 1983 holding up portraits of Ho Chi Minh and Lenin as part of a pile of seized items that nicely shows one of the marine’s helmets setting atop the pike upturned. It’s an ERDL covered M1 with what looks to be the classic orange liner of the 1970’s with the snap in suspension and is missing the nape strap. So it appears they were either taken out or not put in by some servicemen while they were being worn and issued. So finding a helmet like this one without the nape I suppose doesn’t mean necessarily that the condition in which you find it isn’t the condition it was in when worn. 

[conn]

tough question

 

 the us govt. supply train does not run like a fine tuned V-8

 

welcome to helmet collecting

 

 this forum is great with assistance

 

i am no expert

 

anyone being in the Marines know that we were usually the last to get anything new.

 

your questions are best answered by govt contract dates, plus please remember the Marines received items as they were necessary.

this forum has alot of knowledge posted.

read up on it. and what is nice here, is that things are updated as discovered with hard facts.

 i remember being in the Marines that in the early 80s, still having items from ww2 to current time

 

a put together helmet with proper parts is still a period correct piece.

a helmet with history is also tough to prove.

i have seen German helmets painted by a person in the 1970s pass as originals because the paints were same formulas. 

i know another ww2 vet who was a master of german rifles and had steel inspection stamps to make any item legit.

none of the  helmets were passed as originals, he told me he put a mark on all of them to designate his work. to this day i do not know what it was, but at plenty a shows in different states  he recognize his work from over 40 years later,  he would show me this after he inspected a helmet  that someone would bring to him, and he saw it was a helmet that of his work, he would never tell the person he painted it, he would just tell them it was no good.

i had a friend ( recently passed) who was fantastic painter of helmets, also his Scrim Shaw work. it  fooled all the action houses and books.

i had seen his work in books. 

he never in his 70 years sold an item with pretext it was original.  god bless him.

think of car collectors who want original parts in there rebuilds.

this hobby is a mine field

 

good luck

 

semper fi 

[AKC123]

28 minutes ago, conn said:

tough question

 

 the us govt. supply train does not run like a fine tuned V-8

 

welcome to helmet collecting

 

 this forum is great with assistance

 

i am no expert

 

anyone being in the Marines know that we were usually the last to get anything new.

 

your questions are best answered by govt contract dates, plus please remember the Marines received items as they were necessary.

this forum has alot of knowledge posted.

read up on it. and what is nice here, is that things are updated as discovered with hard facts.

 i remember being in the Marines that in the early 80s, still having items from ww2 to current time

 

a put together helmet with proper parts is still a period correct piece.

a helmet with history is also tough to prove.

i have seen German helmets painted by a person in the 1970s pass as originals because the paints were same formulas. 

i know another ww2 vet who was a master of german rifles and had steel inspection stamps to make any item legit.

none of the  helmets were passed as originals, he told me he put a mark on all of them to designate his work. to this day i do not know what it was, but at plenty a shows in different states  he recognize his work from over 40 years later,  he would show me this after he inspected a helmet  that someone would bring to him, and he saw it was a helmet that of his work, he would never tell the person he painted it, he would just tell them it was no good.

i had a friend ( recently passed) who was fantastic painter of helmets, also his Scrim Shaw work. it  fooled all the action houses and books.

i had seen his work in books. 

he never in his 70 years sold an item with pretext it was original.  god bless him.

think of car collectors who want original parts in there rebuilds.

this hobby is a mine field

 

good luck

 

semper fi 

Thanks for the post. Yea basically what I was trying to ascertain is does the helmet band appear:

 

1. to be a legitimate issue item 

and

2. to be period correct to the period that the rest of the components of the helmet seem to indicate.

 

I have searched the forum and other sites about specific information on these bands and while there is ample discussion it doesn’t seem to go beyond noting that cat eyes appear in the late 70’s and in numbers in the early 80’s and that they initially were unmarked then progressed to the standard 

 "Band, helmet, camouflage US" then later ones with different number designations and year and lot numbers post vietnam. That many vietnam era bands had cat eyes added to them afterward and that the weave is different between earlier and later bands to a degree. So from what I have been able to figure out is that the answers to those questions are probably:

 

1. I guess

and

2. Not typically but possibly. 
 

I decided to post and ask because someone’s veterans will be kind enough to respond with personal experience about wether or not said item looks familiar to them or not or people who have a much deeper knowledge will respond with impressive levels of information that it’s difficult to find yourself. I’ll continue to try and learn more. Thanks 

[AKC123]

My reasoning behind questioning the band is that the color initially seemed a bit off and almost a foliage shade of the much more modern bands and the stitching pattern at the attachment point between the cat eyes. I don’t think the color is really off after looking at it more along side pictures of others shown on Erdl covers from decent photos but the stitching of the attachment point still looks strange. Normally the box and X are much more narrow and don’t extend the full with of the band almost as it appears this one does and the stitching of the pattern is usually darker making it contrast to the material of the band itself. This on top of the fact that, while possible, it seems like a band with cat eyes on a helmet with a brown dominate Erdl cover is unlikely. From every photo I can find I haven’t been able to discern any helmets of the late 70’s early 80’s wear both a brown dominate Erdl cover and a band with cat eyes. It’s always the earlier brown dominate Erdl cover and bands with no cat eyes or bands that have the cat eyes but helmets with RDF or woodland covers. It seems strange to find a helmet with an earlier pattern cover and the slightly later cat eyes. But maybe someone with personal knowledge will correct me. Thanks. 

[AKC123]

Just received the helmet. Something that wasn’t really visible in the listing. It looks like the left side bail has been repaired. The original looks to have been removed or broken off at some point and this rather crude replacement added and painted haphazardly. It seems to be slightly too thick for the chinstrap fastener to engage over properly and the paint/solder I has fixed it in place while the other original bail swivels. The paint is a slightly different shade noticeable under a flashlight. Has anyone seen anything like this before? Could this be a service repair or did somebody do this outside the military? Also I cannot seem to find any heat stamp. I’m guessing it was covered by paint. 

[AKC123]

Other side with the original bail 

[The Rooster]

Its just like the one I wore in the Guard in 81-86 or so until they took them in for the Kevlars..

The only difference between yours and my issue helmet is my liner is newer than yours.You have a 1960's liner. Mine is from the 70's

with removvable webbing. Yours is 1960's...

But yea we had a mix of helmets from other eras. But we were issued the clip on chinstraps and we had the band with the cat eyes.

Its time frame appropriate for Grenada. 1983... Except, the Regulars and the Corps may have been wearing Kevlars by 1983 ?

So Im not so sure..... Could have been some troops wearing M1's and some Kevlars ?

[AKC123]

3 minutes ago, The Rooster said:

Its just like the one I wore in the Guard in 81-86 or so until they took them in for the Kevlars..

The only difference between yours and my issue helmet is my liner is newer than yours.You have a 1960's liner. Mine is from the 70's

with removvable webbing. Yours is 1960's...

But yea we had a mix of helmets from other eras. But we were issued the clip on chinstraps and we had the band with the cat eyes.

Its time frame appropriate for Grenada. 1983... Except, the Regulars and the Corps may have been wearing Kevlars by 1983 ?

So Im not so sure..... Could have been some troops wearing M1's and some Kevlars ?

Yea if you look at plenty of photos from Grenada you will see basically that it seems like the 82nd and some rangers wore the pasgt’s for the most part and everyone else was wearing m1’s. The cat eyes seem to be worn by almost everyone except the marine corps from what I can tell. So this particular helmet might be a guard helmet as you say since it wears an earlier brown dominant Erdl cover and has an older liner yet has the cat eyes which the army seems to have been issuing or telling soldiers to sew on around this time. The band is marked with the standard helmet band camouflage US on the reverse side but very faded. Now I’m just curious about this repair. I guess it would make sense that the guard would want to repair a broken helmet because resources may be more limited. I suppose it’s still usable as the chinstrap hook can be forced more or less half way on and rotate with some stuff pressure around the bail. But after a couple back and fourth it will pop off. 

[AKC123]

You can tell when comparing The two bales in person that the replacement bail ring is just ever so slightly thicker than the other making it impossible to clip the hook on all the way 

[AKC123]

And yes your right the liner appears to be dated to 69 but it’s a bit hard to see. 

[The Rooster]

Those "snap on" chin straps are what replaced the Vietnam era straps.

They will stay on there unless you take them off. But Yea I see what looks like a repair. It could have been guard used... could have been used by the regulars.

My lid which was issued to me in 1982 has an erdl cover like this one. Only mine has no stamp on it that I could find.

[P-59A]

11 minutes ago, The Rooster said:

Those "snap on" chin straps are what replaced the Vietnam era straps.

They will stay on there unless you take them off. But Yea I see what looks like a repair. It could have been guard used... could have been used by the regulars.

My lid which was issued to me in 1982 has an erdl cover like this one. Only mine has no stamp on it that I could find.

My understanding of those snap in chin straps is they first started showing up in the 1950's. Those are OD in color and have a different build compared to the black ones.  This is from another site from a post I had asking about these.

"11-06-2020, 07:32 PM

Okay, now I understand what you are asking. The same Reynosa book says that those were incorporated into M-1 helmet production when it resumed in 1951. They remained standard until the PASGT chin-cup style chinstrap came into used.

I knew those were late war or post-war, but never knew the date until now."

[AKC123]

I’m referring to the replacement bail on the shell circled here in red. This is very definitely a non original part. I know the difference between the chinstraps produced and issued for each area of the helmet’s production. It has correct cup with snap fastener chin strap that began I believe in 1972. But the bail on the shell has been replaced with a soldered on version that is very different then the other  and has a ring which is thicker than the original making the metal hook of the chinstrap unable to fit all the way over it. I was wondering if anyone has ever seen a repair like this because I have not. Below are the two bales for comparison with the replacement circled on red.

[P-59A]

My comment was to correct the dates on the clip on chin straps, not about your helmet. In as far as your swivel bail being repaired...repairs happen. If it wasn't repaired your only other option would be with throwing it away. Post war, fixed bail helmets helmets were upgraded to swivel bail to keep them in service. I wouldn't worry so much about this. If it really bugs you sell it and find another one you like. It's not like these are rare. And that the point, only the military would take the time and effort to fix this. Everyone else would just buy another one.

[AKC123]

15 minutes ago, P-59A said:

My comment was to correct the dates on the clip on chin straps, not about your helmet. In as far as your swivel bail being repaired...repairs happen. If it wasn't repaired your only other option would be with throwing it away. Post war, fixed bail helmets helmets were upgraded to swivel bail to keep them in service. I wouldn't worry so much about this. If it really bugs you sell it and find another one you like. It's not like these are rare. And that the point, only the military would take the time and effort to fix this. Everyone else would just buy another one.

That’s kinda what I figured but I wasn’t sure. Given that if they aren’t rare or valuable outside the military then they would be even less so inside the military who presumably would have many thousands during the time this repair would have been made. So I wasn’t sure if someone would have experience in saying no the military would have just issued a new shell rather than repair it but I think you are most likely correct. 

[AKC123]

2 hours ago, The Rooster said:

Those "snap on" chin straps are what replaced the Vietnam era straps.

They will stay on there unless you take them off. But Yea I see what looks like a repair. It could have been guard used... could have been used by the regulars.

My lid which was issued to me in 1982 has an erdl cover like this one. Only mine has no stamp on it that I could find.

Do you mean the cover has no stamp or the shell has no heat stamp that you can see like this one? I know some of the later Erdl and possibly woodland covers didn’t have a different color material backing and the reverse just showed the bleed through from the pattern on the other side making the ink stamp hard to see sometimes. Especially if it is faint to begin with.